SPS-234: How to Automate Your Amazon Ads – with Dierk Demers

If you’re tired of the complexity of trying to wring data out of Amazon, there is a new tool available to help. James talks to Dierk Demers about Prestozon, a tool that helps manage your keywords, data, ad spend and more.

Show Notes

  • How Prestozon helps with your Amazon ads
  • How to manage your data with Prestozon’s aid, without losing control
  • Pricing for Prestozon specifically for authors
  • How to review the decisions Prestozon is making for you
  • Gathering information about what keywords your readers are using as search terms

Resources mentioned in this episode:

PATREON: Self Publishing Formula Show’s Patreon page

COUPON: Use coupon code SPFSHOW at checkout to receive 50% off your first month at Prestozon

MERCH: Are you a ligneous beetle or a yawning hippopotamus? Get your SPF hoodies and t-shirts in the brand new SPF Store.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

SPS-234: How to Automate Your Amazon Ads - with Dierk Demers

Speaker 1: On this edition of the Self-Publishing Show ...

Dierk: Quite frankly, I've actually had Amazon employees reach out and say, "Hey, can you do a demo? Because I've heard that your visualisation is really good." We've walked through it and they go, "I've never looked at our data like this."

Speaker 1: Publishing is changing. No more gatekeepers. No more barriers. No one standing between you and your readers.

Do you want to make a living from your writing? Join indie bestseller, Mark Dawson, and first-time author, James Blatch, as they shine the light on the secrets of self-publishing success. This is the Self-Publishing Show. There's never been a better time to be a writer.

James Blatch: Hello, and welcome. It's the Self-Publishing Show on a Friday from the United Kingdom. This is James Blatch ...

Mark Dawson: And Mark Dawson. Hello.

James Blatch: Mark, the pub's open in 12 hours, 13 hours.

Mark Dawson: You'd be an idiot to go in one of them. No thank you.

James Blatch: Well, it's-

Mark Dawson: Look what's happening in America at the moment now. Bars are open and no, not a good idea, not for me.

James Blatch: Oh, good. Then more space for me. They're all booked up around here because you have to book a table in the garden.

Mark Dawson: Same. Yeah, same here.

James Blatch: You can't get in anywhere at the moment. The weather's rotten here, but I like the fact that when they do legislation and they date it, always it kicks in at midnight when legislation works, but they've amended this particular bit of legislation, or whatever it's called in Parliament, so that it starts at 6:00 a.m. in the morning, because suddenly, it occurred to them quite late on, the little pubs will open at midnight tonight, and that's great. Yes, anyway, it's a landmark moment in the history of coronavirus. Bracing ourselves for the second wave.

Mark Dawson: Possibly, yes. I'll be staying a home, that's for sure.

James Blatch: Reading?

Mark Dawson: Well, actually, yeah. I bought quite a few books today. I actually spent 3,600 pounds on 400 of my own books.

James Blatch: Yes, I'll tell you what. Let me welcome our Patreon supporters. We have one this week to welcome. His name is Gary Roma. Gary, thank you very much. He's been to Pateron.com/SelfPublishingShow to support the show and get lots of goodies and access to training in the process. You can do that as well. Let's talk about one thing before we get on to our ...

We're going to talk about Amazon Ads and a built-on service you can get that sits on top of your Amazon Ads campaigns to help you run them, make life easier, give some time back, and hopefully more sales. That's coming in a moment.

You have been doing launch work. In the last couple of months, you've launched the hardback's distribution into mainstream supermarkets. Has it gone into WHSmith? If you're in America, you won't know what that means, but it's like a high street bookseller.

Mark Dawson: Retailer.

James Blatch: Because I was looking today but couldn't see it in my local one, Huntingdon. It was a very small one there anyway.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. They didn't take many. They were a little bit disappointing. It's also coronavirus and all that, so there's lots of reasons my they didn't. It's mainly supermarkets. It's been less than a couple of months. It's actually a week, it's been out for a week. Well, it was a week ago yesterday, so about 10 days. It's been interesting, me driving around the Southwest last week failing to find one. Then, it's just how those stores, they're not all required to stock the book. I've had plenty of pictures from readers and actually some SPFs as well and family, who found copies of the book in various places around the country, so it's definitely selling.

We know that we are, at the moment, or on Wednesday, it was at number 13 in the Sunday Times Bestseller list, which is not that hard to do. It sold about 1,300 copies, I think, to get to that kind of level, so that's quite good. We'd like to get to the top 10. The last couple of days have been pretty interesting. I haven't offered the opportunity to any of my non-UK readers to get a copy of the book. We've been trying to think of ways that we could do that in a way that would count those sales as track sales for the chart. I sent out an email yesterday asking people outside the UK if they would like a signed copy. I had about 400 responses saying that they would-

James Blatch: Wow.

Mark Dawson: ... Some people wanting five copies, several wanting multiple copies. We were about 300 off the top 10 on Wednesday. I think probably about 400 people have indicated they're interested, which if everything else stays the same, provided none of the books ahead in the slots from 10 to 12 suddenly picked up speed and sold, widened the 300 gap to where I was, we may have vaulted them. The trick today has been, how do we get the books to count? Then, how do we take payment and how do we get them shipped?

I took an executive decision about 12:00. I went into the local children's bookstore here in Salisbury called Rocketship Books, and I said, "Would you be interested if I placed an order for 400 hardbacks of my own book?" They were like, "Yes, of course." They've got a margin. They made a couple of quid on each book. They got 45% off the list price, so they were buying them ... That would have been their margin. They added two pounds on that, so they made two pounds per book. I think, as far as we can make out, those sales will track. We can't say for sure, but we think they will.

What we're going to do subsequently in order to get those books out to readers is, I've been doing a project on my website for the last couple of weeks, which we will be adding a store to it, where readers can get any of my print books, so including the hardback, get a signed copy. There's a WooCommerce store integrated in it. There, they can pay through Stripe. Stripe takes the money. I get pinged an email with a dedication and their address.

Then, I'm probably going to hire someone, actually, to work full-time for the business in the next week or two. One of her jobs will be to, basically, make that work, to tell me what I need to do, pick up the signed books, package them, take them to the post office, send them off. We'll see. Fingers crossed. It cost 3,600 quid to buy those books, which felt very ... What's the word? Buying your own book was a bit grandiose.

James Blatch: Yeah. Offset against the income you get from people buying it for you, so the exercise wouldn't have been profit-making for you, I assume.

Mark Dawson: It will be break-even, I think. This one will be break-even, because the hardback is quite carefully priced. The thing is though, it's shipping. Shipping is ridiculous. To ship a hardback to the United States, how much do you think that costs? Have a guess.

James Blatch: Well, by your voice, I can tell it's going to be more, or you're going to tell me it's 10 quid or something.

Mark Dawson: Keep going.

James Blatch: Really?

Mark Dawson: 18 pounds. 18 pounds to send it. That's normal airmail, so not extravagant. You could pay more. Then the surface mail, so the one that would take the longest, the minimum on that is eight pounds. It is really expensive. The actual shipping will cost more than the book does, which, that's just crazy.

James Blatch: That is crazy.

Mark Dawson: There doesn't seem to be any way around it.

James Blatch: What you need is a VA in the States that you can create off a ... If you send stuff by ship, those are probably called containers, that's the cheapest way of shipping stuff. You get space in a container.

Mark Dawson: I'd have to send about 10,000 books.

James Blatch: It doesn't have to be a whole container. You can get a piece of a container. Occasionally, they fall off ships and sink to the bottom of the Atlantic but, generally, they're okay. Anyway, this is obviously a bit of a one-off, and you're going to be very frustrated if it turns out that this was not a return shop that counts for the list.

Mark Dawson: It is.

James Blatch: It is.

Mark Dawson: We've cleared that. It's definitely a return shop. The chart runs from Sunday to Saturday, so sales from last Sunday to tomorrow, as we record this Saturday, are counted. It's just with the virus and all that, and the person who composites the chart is on furlough. You've just got to hope that those sales track. There's nothing I can do. I can't make them track. They think, the bookshop was confident, and Gardners here, the distributors, spoke to the bookshop and said, "As far as we're concerned, they are tracked," so we'll see. I won't be able to tell, probably ... Or I probably will be able to tell, but I can't do anything else.

James Blatch: How did you know you were 13?

Mark Dawson: On Wednesday, you get a half-weekly report.

James Blatch: That's an industry report, that's not published anywhere?

Mark Dawson: No, it's industry. You probably got to subscribe to it, so that's Nielsen's who put that out.

James Blatch: Okay. Well, that's an interesting exercise. Old school. You've gone old school.

Mark Dawson: Yeah.

James Blatch: What's interesting about this whole process is those lists. I know you've said, in the past, you're not that bothered about it. I think it would be a nice thing to do, and it's part of a strategy if you can raise visibility into more mainstream areas, which will feed back into your book sales where you make the profit on Amazon and the other retailers. I understand that. I know I've mentioned these lists in the past. You said, "Well, it doesn't really matter," and it sort of does and it doesn't.

I think they do matter because for most of our friends who are immersed in the indie world of publishing, they open the paper or they go online and they see the top 10 Sunday Times list, and they see those stickers and it means something to them about the books that people are reading. It does annoy me that in a week where you'll get, I don't know, some great authors like Martina Cole, or whoever, at number one, and all those similar authors, Joanne Harris, or the rest in that list.

Then there'll be LJ Ross and you nowhere to be seen because your sales, because of an accident to the way the system's evolving don't count. That makes no sense, because if people are buying your books and reading them it should be reflected in a list that people look at as being the bible of who's reading what at the moment.

Mark Dawson: Well, the Amazon charts do that, just on Amazon. You may not know this. There's a facility now called Amazon Charts, which take into account Kindle Unlimited page reads, sales. I think they also take into account listens as well, so it collates ... Amazon is the biggest bookstore in the country by a zillion miles, so that's a much more relevant metric or benchmark than the Sunday Times Bestseller list.

James Blatch: But my neighbour doesn't look at that. My neighbour opens the paper on a Sunday.

Mark Dawson: I know. That's just how it is. It doesn't bother me that much. I won't be that bothered. I'll be annoyed if we miss it by 50, but I won't be that annoyed. I don't think it is that important. The publishers are very keen, but then they're approaching it from a slightly different angle than I do. I would rather say, we can say on the cover, "three million copies sold." That, to me, would be a more powerful piece of social proof than Sunday Times Bestseller.

Because, I suppose, not everybody would know this but you can be on the Sunday Times Bestseller list with ... You mentioned Louise. Louise would have sold enough yesterday to rank on the Sunday Times Bestseller list, I would imagine. I probably would too. We know that. We know what the numbers are across the different areas of the industry, as you say, and you're right. The general public won't really realise that, but things are changing. I'm also quite competitive, as you know. I've never seen a challenge I don't like to beat, so we'll see if we can do that.

James Blatch: I can see that. It's gripped you. I do think it's currently a little misleading when you look at that chart. Isn't that a truth? If people think that's a reflection of the books that are selling in the UK at the moment, they're being misled. There should be a caveat at the bottom saying, "The biggest retailer that people buy books from is not included for all the e-books," which is how a lot of people read, they consume their books.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. Print books are counted.

James Blatch: ... print books are counted because it's the ISBN system, isn't it?

Mark Dawson: Yeah.

James Blatch: Then, I think the problem is probably back with Amazon, who are going to be reluctant to ship out to all in sundry their sales figures every week, which is effectively what you would get from the ISBN returns for e-books.

Mark Dawson: Maybe.

James Blatch: That's probably an issue here, otherwise they'd do it. Anyway, that's an interesting area. Yes, as I say, old school. Sunday, by the time this goes out, this all would have been done, so we'll have to Google ... Oh, it'll still be the live chat, I guess, if it's next Friday.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. I won't know until Tuesday.

James Blatch: Right. 9.99 a month, I think, is the Sunday Times subscription online, if you're around the world. They have a very good puzzles page, which I do love.

Mark Dawson: Yes.

James Blatch: Good. Okay. Anything else been going on in your world this week?

Mark Dawson: No, I don't think so. That's been my main focus, is trying to figure out ways to get books shipped, which not exactly would detain me very long, but that's been an interesting puzzle. We'll see how it goes. I'll let you know next week.

James Blatch: Good. Okay. Well, look, our interview today is with Prestozon. I think we've probably mentioned Prestozon a couple of times already. It's a service that's been around for a little while. Mark started talking from here, a year or so back.

They are a service for people who are using Amazon advertising. They started as a service for people using Amazon Ads to sell little black widgets and caravans, or whatever people sell on Amazon, everything. They've been very, very interested in authors and they started talking to people like Mark a year or so ago. They really got their act together in the last 12-

Mark Dawson: Keeping going.

James Blatch: How long?

Mark Dawson: Four years.

James Blatch: Four years ago, okay. They've really got their act together-

Mark Dawson: At least, yeah.

James Blatch: ... in the last six months or so, where they've started to properly make some changes to the platform and really turn their attention to authors. We've got to know them a little bit. They're a great team, really fun, very flexible. They've got a good product. I think it's still in its, from an author point of view, it's in a development stage, so they're very keen for people to give them feedback.

I've been using it, you've been using it, and I think the first thing we could both agree on is it's saved you time because the Amazon Ads platform can be a bit fiddly to extract all the data that you need and various reports to make your decisions, and go in and make the changes. It's smooths that process completely.

I'm going to let a man called Dierk tell us more about the platform. He is based in New York, like a lot of these companies are. I think it's probably a work-from-home, even before coronavirus affair. Dierk is one of the brains behind the system as it develops today. Let's hear from him, and then Mark and I will be back to talk about our experiences with Prestozon and a code for you to use to get a trial to see if it's going to work for you.

Dierk from Prestozon. "Hey, presto." Look at all this. We got, it's magic. There's magic in the room.

Dierk: I've got to stay true to brand, you know?

James Blatch: Yeah.

Dierk: It is uncomfortable. You get it at the very beginning, and then we'll move away from it.

James Blatch: I think wizards would wear that one out, formal wizard wear, but now we're riffing about the magic that you do, we can be a little bit less formal.

Dierk: This is casual wizardry. Not formal right now.

James Blatch: Dialled it down a bit. Okay. Presto, by the way, before we get into this, Prestozon is presto as in, "Hey, presto." Is that where the name comes from?

Dierk: Yeah, exactly. It's "presto" and then "Amazon." If you look on the site, our branding is the top hat with the wand and the whole nine yards, yeah.

James Blatch: Super. Okay. Well, look, I've been using this product for a little while now, so we are going to talk about some of the nitty-gritty.

I think we should start big and perhaps you just tell our audience what Prestozon is.

Dierk: Prestozon is an Amazon PPC management tool. What we do really breaks down into three different buckets. We have our analytics to show you what's going on in your account. The common phrase I use and have been using my whole careers is, "What gets measured, improves." You can't improve things unless you can see what's going on. Our analytics is really just best in class. It gives you really unique viewpoints into what's going on. Then the other two prongs are our bid optimization. We will manage your bid based on your ACoS target on a target level, so on a keyword typically. Keyword or ASIN target level.

Then finally, our keyword migration rules. Those will actually move keywords into different campaigns or ad groups based on your stipulations. What those all combine to do is, basically, it's designed to not just optimise your account but really give you back time. We want to do 90% of the boring stuff, and so then you can go in and ... We still want you to tweak. We still want you to do your account manager magic, but we just want to take away most of the boring stuff, so then you only have to worry about that 10% of optimization.

James Blatch: Some background for people who aren't using Amazon Ads yet. It should be said that the platform is hugely important to lots of us, but it's not a great interface.

It's never has been its strong point, the Amazon Ads platform, so I can see you felt the pain points of people using it.

Dierk: Yeah, absolutely. Our main goal is really to be a higher level programing language that's an overlay on top of Amazon. I think one of the things that you talk about is how you don't really like to use the Amazon bid suggestions because you're not sure where they're coming from, and things like that.

We want to have an option that A, is a little bit more catered to your account and B, is a little bit more transparent. We're showing you, whenever for instance, we make a bid suggestion, we're always going to show you the data behind it and the reason behind it, which is not something you generally get when you're looking at Amazon.

James Blatch: Okay. Let's look at the platform in a little bit more detail. The first thing you come into is the campaign manager. You do get this, there's one option there that stands out there straightaway, is bid automation, which you mentioned at the beginning. Somewhere in the settings, I think it's in the settings, you set your desired ACoS.

ACoS, we should say for people who don't know, is basically whether you're making a profit or a loss on a campaign, so 100% is a break-even point. Below 100% is good. Above 100%, in theory at least, is another very important point to make for authors in the moment, but above 100% is, in theory, a loss on your campaign. You set that.

Now that, seems to me, a global setting across all your campaigns?

Dierk: You can do it in both ways. You can set it on the profile level, in the profile settings, so then that would set the default for all of your campaigns. Then in the campaign manager, you can also set it on the campaign level. If you've got different campaigns, for instance, for different books that have different ACoS targets, you can set those on that level. Then, the actual automation works on the target level. Every individual keyword will be evaluated individually, and try to track towards that ACoS target.

James Blatch: Okay. I can see that now. It's blindingly obvious, despite the fact I didn't notice it before. I could see, in the settings, you set your ACoS target. There it is. There's a little pencil next to the individual campaigns that I can change. Now, that is important I can tell you straightaway, because the ACoS I would name for book one in a series can be a lower ACoS because of read-through than the box set, for instance, where you need to be really making a profit on the campaign, so I would-

Dierk: Absolutely.

James Blatch: ... would be changing that there. The one thing I was hinting at, which I can see you nodding away, is that for those of us who make money through Kindle Unlimited, that's not reflected in sales on the dashboard, and we have to take that into account.

For instance, I was talking to two sisters actually here in the UK, who run a very successful ... They just had their first $50,000 month. They started only 18 months, less than two years ago. They're doing brilliantly. They write books every week. They're doing so well.

Typically, their Amazon Ads platform, like mine, has never shown a profit. It never looks like it's showing a profit, and that's because they're big KU people and read-through, of course, is hugely importantly. Neither of those are reflected in the Amazon Ads dashboard, and they're not reflected in Prestozon either because, of course, you are taking that data straight from Amazon Ads.

How can authors adapt their strategy bearing this in mind?

Dierk: Yeah, that's absolutely true. If Amazon starts providing more of that data through the API ... It's pretty obvious from us being here, supporting authors is a big initiative for us and so as we get more data, we will try to integrate that as quickly as possible. To answer your question, that's the nice thing about being able to set your ACoS target is even though, for most of our physical product customers, they set their ACoS target and it's an actual goal that they want to get to.

Whereas for authors, because you have this other venue to get revenue in a different place, you can just set a higher ACoS target. Whatever you're comfortable with, if you know that at 120% or 100% you're actually going to be getting enough revenue through the read-through rate, then you can set it at that point rather than setting it at 30%, which might be your actual breakdown when you bring in your read-through revenue. You can do it that way.

I know that you're big on benchmarking, and so it just goes hand-in-hand with how you talk about doing benchmarking externally. Outside of the platform, you can basically use that benchmarking and then apply it to your ACoS targets within the platform.

James Blatch: It seems to me, there's a gap in the market for someone to come up with that formula that feeds in what you know is your break-even point and translates that into an ACoS. I know that we sell, the books that Mark and I market, sell, they get 60% of revenue through KU, 40% through physical sales, and also I know, roughly, what the read-through rate is. I reckon with those elements, I could come up with the points at which a campaign is no longer profitable based on its ACoS. I'll have to sit down with a pen and paper and a spreadsheet, at some point, to work that out.

That's the flexibility of this platform is that you can then adjust your ACoS and all your data you're getting back shows you whether it's performing or not.

Dierk: Precisely. Even though we're not getting all the data, it's flexible enough that you can work around that limitation. Then, again, ideally, eventually we'll get that data and we'll be able to integrate it into the calculations directly. Happy to work on that worksheet for you. I'm already working on a blog post and some breakdowns for, similar to how you calculate with the length of your series and how that applies to your actual revenue, versus just the sale on your first book, et cetera.

One of the things we're really trying to do is, there's not a lot of education out there really dialled into the data behind Amazon PPC for authors. While we wait to get some of this data, and get some of the other stuff in the platform, we want to fill the gap with education. That's why we're doing things like this to try to, first of all, learn. From my perspective, I'm new to the author game. My specialty is really in physical products and that side of things, so we want to learn, find out what questions are out there and then see how we can answer them from the data and analytics side of things.

James Blatch: Just on this point, Mark's been using Prestozon for a while, we've been chatting to you guys. How important is it to you to work with the author world? It's quite a distinctly different part of Amazon. Although it uses the same platform, there are variations in the way it uses.

Is this an important part of the future for you guys?

Dierk: It's a gigantic part of the future. We actually had Amazon reach out to us a few months ago. They said, "Hey, you've got a bunch of authors on your platform. What do you do to support them?" Our honest response was, "Not much." Authors found us, and used us, and dealt with the shortcomings, but not because we were actively reaching out to help. When we got to talking to Amazon, it looks like Amazon is starting to come around to try to support authors more on the PPC side of things. We work very, very closely with Amazon and their API team so we said, "Well, how can we help?"

It's a big initiative for us. We now have a Facebook group where you can hop in and throw feedback in there, ask questions. We're working on training programmes specifically for authors. It's a huge part of our development. Just the other day, I was actually listening to this podcast, and hearing about how important click-through rate was. Most of our actions and triggers are on sales and conversions, because that's what makes sense for products, but that doesn't necessarily make sense for authors. Because if you get high click-through rate, even if you're not getting an actual sale, you might be getting a high read-through rate.

If you go to the author group or you message us, you've got a direct line to us, who then have a direct line to the developer. I've actually added onto our product roadmap the ability to set a click-through rate threshold in order to promote and move keywords, because we don't currently have that. Not only is it important for us just from an education standpoint, we're actually going to have our development roadmap be created with author needs in mind. The more we talk to authors, the more we understand your pain points, we're actually going to drive our product in that direction for you.

James Blatch: Well, that's superb. That fits into the philosophy we're learning from people like Janet Margot, at the moment, is to really focus on impressions and click-through rates. Knowing that there's a conversion level there, you can always leave the sales to their own devices because they will follow if you get the top of the waterfall right. Funny enough, I was thinking, we'll come onto, I'm going to go through this bit-by-bit in a minute because it's an interesting platform and it's not too complicated at all, actually, to use.

I'm going to come on to the suggestions page. Actually, I found myself toggling backwards and forwards, because I wanted to see the click-through rate before I made a decision about accepting. That was actually a little bit fiddly at that time because you don't see the bid suggestion and the click-through rate at the same time, so that might be my little bit of feedback for you, which I'll post into the group at some point.

Dierk: Absolutely. Do you click the little "show data" button?

James Blatch: Yes.

Dierk: Then you can apply it on the list.

James Blatch: You can apply it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, yes. Yeah.

Dierk: Yeah.

James Blatch: Okay, right. We're on this analytics page, at the moment, where we're seeing the campaigns. You mentioned at the beginning this bid. In fact, it's just reloading the data at the moment, so it's gone from me at the moment. The toggle you get at campaign level to adjust your bid automatically, just talk to me about that. Because, obviously, on the one hand, we're telling people to be on top of their data and to know everything. On the other hand, here is a toggle switch at campaign level to do stuff automatically.

I think people would want to understand exactly what it does.

Dierk: Again, our plan is to do the 90%. There's some tools out there that want to completely take over your account, and we don't think that's a good way to do it because you, as an account manager, you as an author and a self-publisher understand your book, your market way better than our algorithm ever will. You're always going to have more context, and we very much suggest that you're in it at least once a week.

Our goal is to get you from doing two hours of work a day in Amazon PPC to, hopefully, only be doing one or two hours a week. You look at that and you measure how much of your time is worth, hopefully, that's where the value proposition is.

In terms of the actual nitty-gritty behind it, the algorithm is going to track towards your target ACoS. We're going to look at an individual keyword within your campaign. Just to make the math easy, say your ACoS target is 100%. If that individual keyword within the campaign that has a target of 100% is above the ACoS target, so say it's 150%, then we will typically bring the bid down because we're saying, "Hey, you're above your ACoS target. Let's reduce the CPC on this. Let's try to get it underneath the target."

Conversely, if you're below the ACoS target for a keyword, you're running at 20%, then we'll actually raise the bid because we'll say, "Hey, you've got meat on the bone here. You've got room to try to bring in more impressions," and so hopefully, we can drive more volume through the successful keyword so that you can continue to get more impressions, more clicks. Ultimately more conversions, but also more read-through.

James Blatch: That toggle switch, the bid automation there, how does that interact with the suggestions page where you get keyword-by-keyword bid suggestions, which you can then press a button and apply?

Dierk: The automation applies it for you. If you were to automate all of your campaigns, then the suggestions tab would actually be blank for your bids. What you're seeing when you haven't automated is exactly what the system is doing in the background if you were to automate.

James Blatch: Okay. You have a campaign level, you can toggle that switch, and everything your algorithm's finding out based on what you've put there in terms of what you're trying to achieve, it would automatically do those bid adjustments. However, you can leave that toggle off. You can go into the suggestions tab, and let's do that now, actually. Because I've been through all my suggestions, and either rested them or applied them, so there's nothing there now for me. Actually, if I take off the available filter, do that, I'm going to see them.

You can go to suggestions level, you can literally look at ... Here's a keyword, "extinction series," I can see my current bid is 68 cents. I spent $4.66 on it. If I do data toggle, I can see the click-through rate on it, which is .73, which is good. Then I can make a decision on your recommendation. As I said, I've been through mine, but typically, what I was reading earlier is that your ACoS is low on this, so we're typically, we're going to suggest you lower that bid. Usually, it was within a few pence of what I was going for anyway.

A couple of them are quite significantly different, and I have noticed, actually, one of the great benefits of having this kind of dashboard display, a couple of my keywords were out of control. I was like 4 or $5 bids on them. I don't know how that happened, but that's the sort of thing that you notice when you start looking at this level, which is again, to come back to the beginning, not the easiest thing to do with the Amazon Ads platform.

It involves downloading reports, and opening up spreadsheets, and so on so yeah, there's some benefit for me.

Dierk: Absolutely. You can actually customise the bid right there. There's a little spot where you can edit the bid suggestion. That's nice, so if you don't agree with us in an instance, you can just change it to whatever you would have wanted it to be. Then, I actually suggest don't automate at first, so that you keep an eye on us.

Then, there's a little bulk actions button up at the top, and if you find yourself just sort of mindlessly going through and applying in bulk, because after a couple weeks, you're like, "Oh, yeah. I trust Prestozon. I trust their suggestions," then you say, "Okay, maybe it's time to automate, because I've got a comfort level with the suggestions that they've been making."

James Blatch: I think I will get there, because I suspect what I did in the first couple days using Prestozon is I spotted those outliers that were clearly wrong, bidding $4. Your suggestion was to reduce the bid a bit to maybe $3, but that's still way too high for me, and that's because of where the bid was. Those are the sort of things I need to spot. When I finesse that, everything's more or less in my ballpark.

We'll get to what the results are, but I imagine I'm going to be using more of the automation process, which I guess is the point, right?

Dierk: Absolutely, absolutely, because we want to give you time back. Just another little function is if you go up to the profile level settings where you set your ACoS, there's also a bid constraint on the profile level that you can set. If you never want it to go above a dollar or, I guess, in your case, it would be a pound, right?

James Blatch: Yeah. Or actually, I think my dashboard is in dollars.

Dierk: Right. If it's in the U.S. You can set it so that it can never go above a certain threshold.

James Blatch: Yeah. That's global as well. I can see that in the settings but can you do that at campaign level as well? Because it might be different between the box set and an individual book.

Dierk: No. Currently, that bid constraint is only on the profile level, just to make sure that you can catch everything and you don't have anything going completely crazy, but we don't have it on the campaign level yet.

James Blatch: Okay. I'm going to put in $2. I don't really think I'd go above $2.

Dierk: Great. If you click that, there's a little "enforce maximum" button, and so-

James Blatch: It'll go through and change it.

Dierk: Yeah, exactly. If you don't click that button, then say you manually set something to $5 because it's a special case, if you don't click that little checkbox, then it will leave it at $5. If you click that checkbox, then we will actually enforce that maximum you just put in, across the profile.

James Blatch: Wow. Probably a good place just to pause our dissection of Prestozon and tell people how much this is so they can factor that in, some people will just be starting out with Amazon Ads.

Who is this pitched at? Is this pitched at people already running a few campaigns, I guess?

Dierk: Yeah, absolutely. It does take a little bit of Amazon PPC knowledge. As you start walking through, like you were saying, the UI is great and really intuitive but it is deceptively complicated when you really get into the weeds. That's also why we're really developing the education programme, especially for authors, to help them jump in.

The original question was pricing. We actually, again, with authors in mind, not just for authors but we catered it to them a little bit. We're now offering a $50 a month tier. Our standard tier starts at $100 a month, and then goes up based on your spend.

Specifically for authors, it's called Prestozon Core. If your spend is below $10,000 a month, you are able to use Prestozon Core, and it basically has all of our core functionality. You still get the bid optimization daily, and it does your top thousand keywords. You still have access to the rules.

It just runs once a week rather than daily, and then you still have access to all of our analytics. It saves us a little bit on the processing side of things, which is why we're able to offer it at the slightly lower price, but it still has that core functionality. Then ideally, as you scale, hopefully, everyone's going to hit that $10,000 spend marker and then they can move up into the full platform as well.

James Blatch: Although, I would suggest that you will probably want to move up before you get to $10,000 spend, I'd imagine. We're going to hit, with our little Fuse Books, I think we're going to hit two and a half thousand dollars this month, maybe a bit more on ad spend. I'm getting to the point where the $100 suddenly looks like a small percentage of that to have the extra bits you get, the daily changes for instance.

Dierk: Absolutely, yeah. There's definitely benefit to upgrading, even if you're in the 5,000 to $10,000 range as well.

James Blatch: We should say, Mark and I will give the link out after this, that you've done a good deal for listeners of this very podcast. I think it's 50% off your first month. Is that right?

Dierk: You're exactly correct. I have the code if you want it.

James Blatch: Yeah. You can give that out, and we'll reiterate it at the end and put it in the show notes.

Dierk: Yeah. It's SPF Show.

James Blatch: SPF Show. There you go.

Dierk: SPF Show.

James Blatch: Excellent, okay. That's the main page. We've talked about the suggestions. The way this works, because it's quite interesting to me how this works. I was expecting to create a user and log-in here but actually, you give it your Amazon credentials, so it's closely linked to that account.

One thing I noticed right at the beginning, which is just the way that Amazon works, but you do have to have a set Prestozon account for each territory. I typically advertise in the UK and the U.S. I would have to have two subscriptions and two ways of logging into Prestozon, as I do with Amazon for those two territories.

Dierk: Yeah. You can actually link, if you have the same email user linked to those different accounts, then you will be linked to all of them. You can actually go into a little dropdown in the upper-right of the application and switch between them, but they are separate subscriptions. We have to make a delineation somewhere, and that's how Amazon manages their permissions. You're exactly correct.

We use log-in with Amazon, so you don't have to worry about us having permissions or in terms of the data, all of the security stuff, all the permission stuff is handled on the Amazon side. It's a little nice in terms of peace of mind that we've got that connection.

James Blatch: Now, I haven't got this far yet, but I was wondering about reviewing the decisions it's made. Because I went through a lot of keywords, and either paused them or applied the suggestion bid, or made a manual change.

Can I review the changes that have been made?

Dierk: Yeah. There's a change history tab right next to the suggestions tab, I believe. You can go through there, and you can look at all of the changes. It will also tell you where the changes were made or what the automation reason was. You might see, "Oh, why did Prestozon make this $10 change?" or something like that. Then you'll look and you'll go, "Oh, no. That was me on interface." Yeah, so there is a change history so you can go in and review.

James Blatch: Tell us about the company a bit, Dierk. How long have you been involved in it, and when did it start?

Dierk: Prestozon's been around for almost four years now. The way that it was started, Ben, and Dana, and Chris, the co-founders, were actually selling on Amazon. Their day job, they were software developers by day, working at a software company. They were doing this as a side gig, and they were developing Amazon tools for themselves where they were like, "Oh, Amazon doesn't do this well. This is a pain, so I'm going to develop this tool to make it easier."

Then eventually, the first product was the bid optimization, where they made that and were like, "Wow, this works really well. This could be a product in and of itself." Sort of like the people that were selling jeans and panning bowls and things at the Gold Rush. Those were the ones that really took off.

They were like, "Oh, well, we can actually make this a product," and so they developed it, the productized it, and they started going out and working with agencies, and working with direct clients.

My background, I actually started in PPC, actually, in hospitality. I started as a hotel General Manager, and PPC is huge in the revenue side of management things for hotels. That was my, almost a decade ago now, that's how I started in PPC, and then I moved over to work in manufacturing. I was working for an electronics manufacturer and running the U.S. operations and supply chain. Heavily involved in Amazon, both on the FBA side and the supply chain side, and then on the Amazon PPC and advertising side.

I came to Prestozon probably about a year and a half ago. I still remember, about a month in, we had a company-wide meet and greet. I looked at Ben and I said, "In six months, I'm going to be the strategy guy. I'm going to be the expert," and everyone laughed. Because Ben has a great reputation in the space, and he speaks at conferences and all this. I was there for a month, a young whippersnapper saying, "I'm going to take your seat." Almost six months to the day was the first time that I really stumped Ben with an interesting strategy.

It's such a cool, interesting problem. No one has a silver bullet for Amazon PPC, whether it's on the product space or on the author space. If someone did, then everyone else would be out of business. It's a really fun, interesting problem. What we see, both on the product side and especially on the author side is ... I'm a math guy, I got my degree in mathematics. Ben's a data scientist by trade. There's not a lot of analytics people and math people doing Amazon PPC.

On the product side, it's all marketing people and creatives that are just like, "Oh, I have to do this advertising stuff for authors." You want to write. That's your goal. This is a means to an end. You do it because it's needed, and so we want to fill in that gap. We basically want to be the data scientist in order to help you, again, get back to what you're doing and not having to focus as much of your time on Amazon PPC.

James Blatch: I like your ambition.

Dierk: Hey, you got to shoot for the stars. Right?

James Blatch: Go big or go home.

Dierk: Exactly.

James Blatch: It's good that Ben didn't just laugh and say, "Get rid of that guy. Call security," but there you are.

Dierk: No, I think he did.

James Blatch: Oh, he did?

Dierk: I just ignored him. I just kept showing up to work.

James Blatch: Okay. Very good. Without going to technical, no one else will be interested in this bit but I'm kind of nerdy about this. The backend of this. There's something called an API that every platform has, which is the proper way to plug-in and get details out of it so you can create an interface for it, so you could have something that manages your usership account and it gets stuff from the API.

Is that how this works, it plugs into the API? Or do you have some sort of inside track with Amazon to link things up?

Dierk: Yeah. We plug into the Amazon advertising API. We do also have a really close connection with Amazon, and we deal with them very closely. In terms of the actual data connection, technically speaking, I don't think quite anyone, but even as a direct seller, you can get access to the API, but a lot of it is about how you manipulate that data. Just because you have the data, it's just there in piles and you don't know what to do with it.

James Blatch: There's the magic, is in the software, without question. This is probably a company confidential question, but I'll ask it anyway.

Is it a long-term strategy that Amazon, at some point, will think, "We should really own this"?

Dierk: Yeah, I don't know. Right now, we're just having fun. I, for some reason, love having Amazon PPC. That's something I learned about myself is, I love talking about this sort of stuff all the time. Right now, we're just enjoying building a really cool product. We love working with our clients, and having a close relationship with them, and building solutions for them, and helping them succeed.

We're very much in a supporting role to help other people grow and do cool things. Right now, that's what we're interested in doing, and we're happy to do it. Who knows what tomorrow brings? We're going to keep doing our thing for as long as we can.

James Blatch: Well, I think it's great. All you can do is just make the platform incredibly useful to people-

Dierk: Absolutely.

James Blatch: ... and ultimately, sells them more little black widgets, or books, or page reads. I would have thought, at some point, if I was Amazon and this was working really well, and the people who use Prestozon got better results than the people who didn't which I think is probably, in fact I'm fairly certain, is already the case, at some point, if I was Amazon, I'd be thinking, "I'm going to buy this off you guys, make you guys rich, and then give it to everyone," but who knows what's going to happen?

Dierk: Hey, that sounds great but I don't know. Maybe you'll have to have Ben on and see if he can really turn the screws on them and see what's going on.

James Blatch: Maybe, Ben wants to hold it anyway, to keep it. Who knows what the strategy is?

Dierk: Like I said, we like going into work every day, and so long as that's happening, you can't beat that.

James Blatch: I was surprised, when I first logged-on, I have to say, it's like any kind of new bit of software, you're looking at thinking, oh, you know how this works, "Have I got time to do this?" It's taken me about half an hour to realise I will probably only ever adjust this level of detail in my Amazon Ad campaigns through Prestozon.

I already know I'm not going to be exporting spreadsheets, which is one of the reasons why we've asked you guys to create a mini-course that goes part of our Ads for Authors course, so with a really good, detailed breakdown of how to use it, how to get the best out of the platform.

Because we can see, straightaway, there's a massive advantage to manipulating your campaigns using Prestozon.

Dierk: Absolutely. As I said in the beginning, our whole idea is to be this higher level programing language on top. There are some settings, like budget management and a few other little settings that you still have to do in the Amazon portal. When it comes to data analysis and things like that, quite frankly, I've actually had Amazon employees reach out and say, "Hey, can you do a demo? Because I've heard that your visualisation is really good." We've walked through it and they go, "I've never looked at our data like this."

Because what we did was, there's a lot of tools out there that are a port from Google or Facebook, and they just said, "Oh, well, we'll take this and we'll just put it on top of Amazon." Like I said when we were talking about how we started, it started as an Amazon tool. We built it from the ground-up with Amazon in mind, and especially the search term, because the search term is super important to us. It's what we make a lot of our decisions off of, because that's really the touchpoint with the customer.

The customer doesn't know that you got a broad match keyword on x, y, z character string. They're just typing in what they want to find, and that's the touchpoint. The secret behind what we do is we're trying to make the mapping from the keyword to the search term as close as possible, because that's where you're managing your bid. You're managing your bid on your keyword, but the search term is the touchpoint with the customer.

James Blatch: One of the things we always tell people is to think of keywords as search terms. Sometimes, they are literally a sentence. It's not a keyword.

It's a badly named thing, isn't it, a keyword? Sometimes it's, "How do I build a car?" If you're selling a book that does that, sometimes that's your keyword.

Dierk: Absolutely. The danger there is if you don't have your structure set up correctly, and the keyword doesn't match up to the search term the way you want it, then you can get into all these cross-paths, and the data, it's not clean. That actually, and again, probably why we're so aligned, but the point of Prestozon, in terms of the keyword migration, and our default rules, and our default structure is to get that one-to-one relationship between a keyword and a search term so that you can think of the keyword as the search term. Because if they're set up in that one-to-one manner, then when you change the bid on that keyword, you're directly affecting the relevant search term.

James Blatch: Mark and I think this is a bit of a game changer for us. We spend quite a lot of time telling people how to download the data from the Amazon Ads platform, how to manipulate it. We teach, as a session specifically, of how to create a pivot table and how to use it.

That's a lot of work to go to, to get stuff that you can get at the click of a mouse key here.

Dierk: Absolutely, and it's so hard. Like you said, pivot tables and things like that in order to aggregate the data. We're aggregating the data right there. If you go to the search term explorer, for instance, in analytics, and then you click a little breakdown expansion for keywords, you can see not only the search term, but all the different targets where that search term is firing, and all the data behind all of those different targets.

You can see, "Oh, this search term is working really well for book four, but it's not working for book one. Maybe I should just pause it for all the books except for book four, because that's what's really driving great click-through," or something like that. You can really dive deep and get really granular, and it's just super valuable.

James Blatch: Yeah. You do get a lot of stuff out of Amazon. It's not immediately obvious when you're on the Ads dashboard for the reasons we've discussed, but once you start exporting stuff, you can see, not the keywords you've come up with.

You can see the keywords somebody typed in that led them to eventually buy your book.

Dierk: Exactly, yeah. You're seeing what the customer is actually typing in, and you can glean so much information from that. Then, you go even beyond that and you can see, for instance, ASIN targeting and looking at, "Oh, someone was looking at this book and they ended up buying my book," and that leads you to going through and targeting, whether it be competitors, or it's not really competitors in your space. It's more complementary topics and things like that. You can see all of that within the data, and then build ...

Most of my day is building complex strategies around all this data to basically take what is showing up in the sales history and then transferring that into a strategy moving forward.

James Blatch: Do you have any plans to expand Prestozon to cover some of the other advertising platforms that people use such as BookBub ads or Facebook ads?

Dierk: We've thought about it. Right now, we're really focused on Amazon. There's still so much to expand just in Amazon. You think of all of the things, because now that I've really immersed myself in the author space, I'm building strategies on my side, on the thought, strategic, philosophical side, but then every time I run into a roadblock, I've got a whole list for the developers of like the click-through rate trigger for rules and, obviously, if we get read-through rate, working on some of the calculations to link ASINs by series, possibly.

Then, working around some of the restrictions that authors have because there's certain author ad types where you can only have one ASIN per ad group, and so revamping strategies in order to do that. This is a whole growth area for us, and so we're just really excited to fill this space and try to optimise it for our platform as much as possible. Then maybe one day you can twist our arm to move to Facebook but right now, there's so much. There's a whole feast in front of us, just on the Amazon side.

James Blatch: Yeah. I think the Amazon platform is the one that needs this the most, I would say-

Dierk: Absolutely.

James Blatch: ... out of that bunch. The KU thing is an issue. We hear rumours all the time that they are going to be ... I'm sure they are, without question, going to be adding KU revenues into the dashboard at some point. We don't know when. Hopefully, this year.

Read-through, I don't know whether that will ever be something that Amazon gives up, even though they could probably work it out. They can definitely work it out better than we can.

Maybe at some point down the line, there would be a space for us to put in our read-through values into Prestozon and allow your algorithms to factor that in.

Dierk: Yeah. We have pie in the sky goals. One of them is to be able to integrate different data sources. From the product side, we think of things like COS, your cost of sales and a lot of stuff like that. Then from the author's side, it could be things like read-through rate, things like read revenue. Things like, if you've got the tool to calculate your total sale value for book one or whatnot, we might be able to integrate that sort of stuff. More of a pie in the sky goal, but definitely something that we've thought about.

James Blatch: Superb. Well, Dierk, I think I've probably come across as a bit of a fan. I am a convert to the platform, definitely. I do realise at $50 a month, for people just starting out, they probably do want to be downloading those spreadsheets, and dare I say, creating a pivot table. That's a good thing to do when you start off anyway, I think.

Dierk: Absolutely. The best conversations I have are with people that have immersed themself a little bit and gotten everything in the underlying data, so that when they come over to a platform like Prestozon, they understand what we're doing.

Then the questions are more nuanced, the strategy is more ingrained. I definitely think when you're just starting out, doing a lot of that stuff is really valuable to get an understanding. Then we'll start doing the work for you once you understand the underlying actions behind it.

James Blatch: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. It's the same as employing somebody to do something. You really need to know the complete picture in order to be an effective manager of that person, which is effectively what's happening here. You work for me, Dierk.

Dierk: I live to serve.

James Blatch: Fantastic. Well, you need to put your wizard hat back on as we conclude the interview, because I think you need to go formal again around the streets where you are. I think you're in New York. Are you?

Dierk: I am, yeah. I'm in a suburb, just north of New York City.

James Blatch: Okay. Is the company's done remotely, as is the way things work these days?

Dierk: Yeah. We've always been 100% remote. The only difference with the quarantine is I've got an eight-month-old baby, so no daycare has been a bit of a challenge.

James Blatch: Oh, I can only imagine that. It's hard work at that point. Is he or she crawling yet?

Dierk: Yes. She just started crawling, so she's all over the place. You haven't heard her during this recording session, which means that is a herculean feat from my wife.

James Blatch: We wouldn't have minded.

Dierk: She's apparently kept her quiet.

James Blatch: Thank your wife. I remember the point where they become mobile. Everything changes around the house.

Dierk: Yeah. It's definitely been eyeopening, for sure.

James Blatch: Well, look, good luck with that, Dierk. That's a really important life thing for you. Thank you for coming on. We're going to be friends, I think, and colleagues for the foreseeable future.

Dierk: Absolutely. I look forward to it.

James Blatch: There we go.

You're using Prestozon, Mark. You're using it pretty routinely now, built into your daily trawl through your campaigns?

Mark Dawson: Daily or every other day. I just looked through before we hopped on and it picked out ... It is good. It will pick out just on, as you said, before the interview, on a surface level, just being able to pull down all of the search terms that readers are using to search or to be able to find books, and then those searches converting into sales of your book, it makes it very much more easy than it is on Amazon. Especially if you've got more than one account, so you don't need get the spreadsheets, it will pull those down for you. It makes it a lot easier to do that.

You can also see patterns of which search terms are working. You can see the ACoS, again, keywords and search terms all colour coded, and you can set the AcoS target to whatever you want, so it's very good at presenting the information.

The automation side of it is interesting as well. It will look at your bids and it will suggest several hundred ... I just clicked through, I think, a thousand suggestions on one of my accounts, and it moved some bids up because they weren't getting impressions. It moved some other bids up because there was more space within the margin that I set it to generate more sales. It moves some down, if it feels that the ACoS is too high, above the target, or the click's too expensive or conversion's not right, it will move those clicks down again, which is great.

The other thing it can do, again, automatically, is it will find the search terms that readers are using to then go and buy your books. It will pick out the ones that have hit certain targets. The obvious one is it's made a sale, or maybe it's made five sales. It will take those keywords and put them into a new manual campaign.

You can have automatic campaigns running. Prestozon will pick out the keywords that are selling in those automatic campaigns, or the search words that are selling, put them into its own manual campaign, and then you can look at trying to optimise that, and it will do that automatically.

It's got tonnes of potential. I think it's pretty cool just for the basic features and some of the more advanced features. A few gremlins now and again but the advanced features, I think, have lots of potential. We've definitely got their attention now.

We were on a call the other day with them, weren't we, James? I think, I don't know how many people have enrolled, after finding out through SPF, because we've got a really good little course in Ads for Authors. I think it's three figures, I think, at least. We've brought a lot of authors into their sphere. You might not have heard of them before, so we're quite pleased about that.

James Blatch: Yeah. There is an entry level, like all these things. Depending on how much you're making, there'll be a point at which it's going to work for you. Certainly in terms of if you value your time, I think that entry level will happen sooner rather than later. You can trial it for free for 15 days, I believe the offer is if you use the code SPF Show when you get to Prestozon, Prestozon.com, and sign-up.

Like you Mark, I've been through. I used it this morning. I actually went through my suggested bids, and it's quite nice. You can see your suggested changes that Mark was just describing. I have a couple of pages of them, actually, so I picked out the ones that I wanted to do slightly differently. I either wanted to ignore it, for whatever reason, or change it. Then the rest, once I was happy with them, you can bulk do them and that's a very, very quick way of making changes.

The search term function, which I discovered with Dierk in the call is fantastic to pick out those magic search terms you don't realise are buried in your campaign, with really high click-through rates, like 20 and 30% and yielding sales. You can see them at a glance and start bumping them up, put them in the front and centre. Good. Well, we do like a bit of automation. If you're watching on YouTube, I did my robot, which is great.

If you're interested, also, I should mention. We talked about ACoS, which is a bit of an interesting area when it comes to Amazon Ads because all is not what you see with Amazon. You can have an ACoS score that looks like it's making a loss on Amazon Ads but in the real world, it's making a profit for you because it doesn't take into account things like read-through and crucially, Kindle Unlimited page reads.

I've actually written a blog on my experience discovering all this, and moving the profit bar up month-by-month on our little imprint, Fuse Books, so that blog should be live as we speak, Mark. That does, I think, goes somewhere to explaining what I mean when I say it may look you're making a loss, but actually, you're making a profit using benchmarking and so on, so you can find that.

Mark Dawson: Yeah. It's well worth a read. It's a good blog that sets out-

James Blatch: Praise.

Mark Dawson: Praises, like hen's teeth.

James Blatch: Praise be.

Mark Dawson: It's very good. It's definitely worth a read. Just looking at the ACoS is not necessarily the ... Well, it's a good indication but it's not really the determining factor as to whether an ad should be switched off or not. There are other things to take into account and James does go through in a nice, thorough blog post that you should have a look at.

James Blatch: I'll have to go sit down.

Mark Dawson: I can balance it out if you like.

James Blatch: Oh, what are you going to have a go at me for?

Mark Dawson: Well, I could come up with lots.

James Blatch: Well, it seems like a good time to wrap it up. I'll take the praise going into the weekend. Got the pubs open tomorrow, and Mark has said I did something right.

Mark Dawson: There you go. Life doesn't get any better.

James Blatch: Good. Well, also, thanks to Dierk and Ariel on the team at Prestozon and Ben, who's the big man, the big guy at Prestozon, who we chatted to for the first time this week. I think it's a tool that we'll keep very much in with. We'll be using it and see how that develops. At the moment, they're all ears, so there's a Prestozon author's group specifically for authors using the platform, and they are all ears to how you're using it, what your feedback is. They'd love to hear you, so make sure you do join that Facebook group if you do get involved in Prestozon.

Okay, that's it. Thank you very much indeed to Dierk. Thank you very much indeed, Mark, for joining us on this Friday evening. Stay away from the pubs. Go on your bike. Stay safe, and all the rest of it.

I know I'm not allowed to play cricket. That was the big thing that was supposed to have been announced today is recreational cricket, but that's been kiboshed by Boris, so I'm unhappy because I want to go and play cricket, but there you go. I can't even drink because you've told me that's dangerous. Nothing left.

Mark Dawson: I just looked now. Our clocks, we need to wind up, James, before our cameras stop working.

James Blatch: I am winding up. I'm watching this, I've got to wind up. All that leaves me to say is that it's goodbye from him.

Mark Dawson: And a goodbye from me.

James Blatch: Goodbye.

Mark Dawson: Goodbye.

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