Is A.I. a Help or a Hindrance? - with Mark Dawson

Speaker 1: On this edition of the Self-Publishing Show,

Mark Dawson: All Facebook has is one half of the equation. It knows how cheaply it's able to get you the goal that you've asked it to get, and it will try to optimise that as far as it can to get you cheaper and cheaper clicks. What it doesn't know and what it needs to know is how those clicks behave once they get to the sales page. That's a big problem.

Speaker 1: Publishing is changing. No more gatekeepers, no more barriers, no one standing between you and your readers. Do you want to make a living from your writing? Join Indie bestseller Mark Dawson and first time author James Blatch as they shine a light on the secrets of self-publishing success. This is the Self-Publishing Show. There's never been a better time to be a writer.

Mark Dawson: Hello and welcome to the Self-Publishing Show. Little bit different this week. You'll notice that not with James and James isn't introducing the episode as is normally the case with us and has been the case for the last 400 episodes or so. We're going to be doing things a little bit differently only in a very slight way for the well for foreseeable future. James has been interviewing people for, as I say, 400 episodes now and we've decided that we need to take a little bit off his plate. So around once a month or so it might vary depending on the things I may or may not have to say, but once a month or so, it's going to be a solo show with me and I am going to be just talking about things that I think might be of interest to you as a fellow author.

So for example, today we're going to be looking at AI and talking about some developments in that particular field,

things that are happening, things that are affecting my own workflow and the things that I'm doing with James. So it gives James a chance to put his feet up at least one week a month and hopefully it'll be something that you find interesting to have me go over things that I think are relevant to us all as writers. So there is also a new project that James and I are quite close to being able to announce, and I will probably talk about that quite a lot once it happens. I can't say anything more at the moment because it's tied up in lots of legal wrangling with various parties all being involved in something that may or may not, probably will, but may or may not come together in the next couple of months.

And we may announce it before, but if everything goes to plan, we will be talking about it at the 20 Books Conference in Vegas in November. So if you are interested in what we might be doing, and I know this is terribly, terribly vague, it would be a good idea to go over to the app, I think it's called Shed that the conference users in Vegas, and maybe just note down that session that James and I and a couple of other interesting people are going to be giving when we actually get to Vegas on that Wednesday or Thursday. So have a look at that and it will be something that I talk about a bit more length in these solo shows. I think it's going to be very, very interesting. But enough of that for now.

I want, as I said, to talk about AI today because it is a super, super hot topic in the author community right now.

There's some very entrenched positions on both sides of the fence, both pro and con or those four AI and those, I think it's the end of the world. My position is somewhere in the middle. So I think it is definitely an interesting development and I also think the Pandora's box is open now, so it's not going to be possible to put it back in the box again. We're going to have to get used to the fact that AI is a thing and it will be affecting all of our careers from now on in terms of perhaps how we create content, how we market content, how readers discover us. It is going to be fairly revolutionary, I think, but in no greater sense than was the case when we had the Kindle for the first time. So reading, shifting from print to a digital format. And I do remember 20 years ago something like that when the Kindle was introduced thinking or at least seeing some authors suggesting that this was the end of literature and it would be impossible to make a query as an author with what was coming down the track.

Now obviously that didn't prove to be the case, and in fact it was the obverse. It's been more and more easy to make a career as an author in the digital age than ever has been before. And hopefully that will be something that we see with developments in ai. My general position on all of these things, I'm usually a glass half full kind of person and I think that AI is going to be a useful tool for us and not necessarily something that will destroy our opportunity to get our work in front of readers and be fairly compensated for it. But you never know. I mean, things are changing all the time. It is a very, very fast moving topic and one that we are going to have to keep a very, very close eye on as things develop and as time goes by. But it is in the news all the time at the moment.

You would've seen the Hollywood strike, the writer strike as I record. This came to an end in the last few days and one of the sticking points for the writers was the use of AI by studios to help them write scripts.

And we don't know exactly what the terms of the agreement were, but we know that it was something that was a bone of contention and something that would've been a topic that required quite a lot of work to get into a position whereby it was suitable and acceptable for writers to accept the new deal that they have negotiated. So we'll see how that develops and obviously it's something now that's moving into the actor side of the strike. I read something with Tom Hanks today whereby he was warning his fans on Instagram that a new ad for I think it was a dental product using a deep fake of him was not legitimate.

It had been done without his consent and he went on to say in an interview I read that he could get hit by a bus tomorrow and the technology exists now for studios to have films with him as a 35 year old actor and it would be very difficult to tell that it wasn't him. So this is something that is rolling out across all artistic mediums. We are not the only ones and in fact we are not even the most vulnerable. I think we've seen fake music tracks being released, doing quite well and then having to be taken down when the artists involved complain. We've seen Harrison Ford made to look 30 again in the latest Indiana Jones film. So this is something that is affecting us in lots and lots of different ways. So we need to just keep an eye on really, I don't think it's something that we need to worry about particularly not right now.

I mean there are obviously potentially negative consequences if this is allowed to continue in an unchecked fashion, but

I am recently optimistic as I record this, that guardrails will quite soon be introduced that will make it something that we can use without fearing that it's going to be making our careers untenable in the medium to long term.

So my own position when it comes to AI is that it is a useful tool. I don't use it to write. I think I've said on the podcast before, my view on writing is that it is something that I enjoy doing. I don't want to to don't want to hand it off to anybody else in terms of an AI that I teach or tell to write the new Milton book. I'm not interested in that. I mean, I do work with some other writers for say the kids book, the kids series that I've got.

I work with Alan Burrows on that. That's a kind of a ghost writing arrangement. Alan is credited on those books and that's a process that I enjoy. The two of us batting ideas backwards and forwards and working on something together. What I'm not really comfortable doing and I just don't see the fun of it, would be to write extensively with ai doing the grunt work, putting the words down. That's not for me, but that's not to say that it's not something. I have no problem with other people using that. And there are groups that I'm in, there's a very big AI for authors group now, which it may actually be called that on Facebook with people talking about using AI to actually help them in the drafting process. Now that's fine, I don't have a problem with that really, whatever floats your boats, whatever makes things easy for you.

But from my own perspective, I just enjoy the writing. So I don't really see the point apart from the fact that obviously you can write a lot faster if you get 500 words generated in 10 seconds rather than maybe a couple of hours. I personally don't see the point in doing that. I enjoy that process. But yes, if you are using AI to write or to help you drive, kudos, good for you. As it stands at the moment, it's fine to do that and provided that you are happy with the outcome that I don't really see any harm in it. But for me, my use is a little bit more limited.

So I have occasionally used it to help me generate some plot ideas. It's pretty good at that.

I have worked with it occasionally on some background information on subsidiary characters I might have.

And this is quite fun. I have a cast of characters in the new Milton book, for example, and some of the minor characters who just get walk-on parts. It is quite interesting to ask something like Chat G P T to generate a biography for them. And most of that, if not all of that, won't actually make it into the book. But I have a SCR file when I'm writing with character pen portraits and it is quite fun to, I'm just going to put that in there so you have a little bit more depth in those backup characters that although you're not going to be using 99% of it, it's quite good to have that there so that you understand them a little bit more than you would otherwise. You can go a little bit further with that and actually generate images of those characters with something like Mid Journey.

And I did, if you are following me on Facebook, I did a post not too long ago, maybe a month or two ago, whereby one of my secondary characters a character called Hicks, I asked Mid Journeys who developed or to work on what he might look like and I gave it some ideas in terms of people I think he kind of resembles. And I used some prompts that identified some characteristics that I've included in the book before and then I asked it to go ahead and generate it and drop him in the environment that I'm working about. And then I posted it on Facebook and the response from readers was interesting. I mean a lot of people were saying it's not what they imagined and that's totally fine, but it was a good conversation starter and you can use that kind information, just drop it into that Scrivener file so that you've got something, a visual cue to work off as well.

Again, easy to do and I mean pretty fun. I mean Mid Journey is very, very addictive. Something that James has become very good at is working on those images, which I'll get onto in a minute in terms of what I'm using AI for. But just something that for me, just to generate those characters, see what they look like, pop it in the Scrivener file and then I can refer to it when I actually get into the writing process. So that's one use of it. And that's probably about as far as it goes in the actual creation of New Works, at least as far as I'm concerned. But what I do use it for is marketing. So again, it's not doing it for me, but it is a useful tool. So we had a webinar at the start of the last launch of the ads course where James and I talked about how we are using AI in that process.

So is images and copy really for me with a little bit on top of that. So James uses Mid Journey for images and I've learned from James actually as to how to use that and then to use something like Photoshop to tweak and improve those images. Book Brush is good too actually for that. Friends at book Brush helping us produce images for Facebook ads quite easily, a little bit easier and a little less daunting than something like Photoshop, which can do tonnes and tonnes more, but it's more complicated and also a bit more expensive. But James is using those images. I've started using them too and I'm testing them extensively in the various markets that I'm using for my Facebook ads at the moment.

But what I do specifically and more often is using AI to help me work on advertising copy.

So what I will do is perhaps feed the book's blurb into chat G P T and ask it to then work on maybe 10 primary texts, 10 headlines, 10 tags, and then hit generate and let it go to work.

And that's something that is a different skill that kind of, I mean blurb writing is another thing that it's actually not bad at in terms of at least a starting point, but it's a very different skill to write a hundred thousand word novel and then to distil that down into a 50 word primary text for a Facebook ad or maybe a 10 word headline. That's really, really tricky and it's pretty good at that. It's probably not going to give you something that you can use without any kind of input from you whatsoever. Although now and again I've had headlines come out that I didn't actually need to work on at all, they were really good, but it will give you that prompt, that push and for me, very helpful to get by the blank page issue where you're staring at something and knowing that it is a difficult task.

And it might take you half an hour to work out maybe five or six headlines that you can test. It really does abbreviate that process to have some suggestions generated early on. And then of course you can work with chat G P T to iterate on the successful suggestions. So you might have one headline that you think is pretty decent, you might tweak it a bit yourself and then you could feed that back in and ask it to generate another 10 variations on that. And by going through that process, eventually you can get into a position where you have something that is actually is usable and then you can drop it into your ads and then see how that works. And that could be Amazon ads, BookBub ads, or of course Facebook ads particularly good with the Facebook ads.

It's also quite good on targeting ideas.

So although it won't be able to tell you, which if you're using interest targeting, it won't be able to tell you which of those interests you can go for. It can give you a list of authors that you can then test. And that again is a very useful shortcut. So you might say, look, my book is a little bit like Lee Charles, David Baldacci, James Patterson, give me 50 other authors who are quite like those writers. And some of those it will spit back, might not be right, but you can probably get 40 really, really quickly. And of course there are other ways you can do that too. You can use something like Publisher Rocket. You could even just get the data off a Facebook, sorry, off the Amazon page, look at what your also boughts are like, or look at those authors like the other author that you'll see on your Facebook page.

But that does involve a little bit more work. You can just use G P T to generate those really quickly. And then you can test those in your Facebook ads or you could use them in Amazon ads, you can use those to target your sponsored product ads. It's really good at that. Another thing I've used it for, and this is a bit more kind of clunky, but it does work, there are tools that will enable you to take the ASIN numbers from Amazon pages. So ASIN I think stands for, I've never really confirmed this, but I think it's Amazon standard identification number that you will need if you're going to be doing some of that ASIN targeting in Facebook, sorry, in Amazon ads specifically, not Facebook ads. And one thing I have done is just basically scrape the whole page. So copy and paste, copy the page with submit.

You want to do a search and you've got, let's say you are searching on an author and it's going to give you back the author, the title and some searches will give you the ASIN as well. If you copy the whole page, post the whole thing into chat G P T and then tell it something like, please will you extract all of the numbers that are preceded by asin or I think sometimes it's something you could say an eight digit number that is preceded by say a couple of alpha numeric strings. I'm waffling a little bit to say that if you can tell me what you're looking for, it will pick those out. Now of course you can do that yourself. It's not hugely onerous to just individually copy and then paste the ASINs, but you can grab 20 or 30 really quickly and it will put them in a nice list that you can then copy that list, paste it into your Amazon targeting, and then test those ASINs again really, really quickly.

So there's not that much with limits in terms of what you can do with this kind of new tech. You just need to think laterally sometimes and see if it is something that can help you with. And this is obviously developing all the time and I think it is something that we will come to see as increasingly useful as it becomes more powerful, becomes more flexible and things that we can ask it to do. Now, I wanted also to talk about a trend that I'm seeing in the author community specifically when it comes to Facebook advertising. And there's a trend I would say a lot of people, a good number of people are starting to experiment with and ask me about in many cases, I've seen this quite a lot, people asking me whether it is now possible to completely rely on Facebook to target your ads.

So I guess you could call these untargeted ads, broad targeting, whatever you like. But the principle is instead of using the tools that Facebook gives you to target your ads, so the obvious one is interest targeting, which is something that Facebook does seem to be moving away from, although they are still effective or a custom audience, which might involve people who've engaged with a post or an ad or it could involve your mailing list or it could involve using your mailing list as the foundation for a big lookalike audience. This trend is suggesting we do away with all of that and we completely trust Facebook to find a target, find an audience for our ads, and also test the ad variations themselves to find the creative that works best within that particular audience. So this is definitely a trend. I'm definitely seeing a lot of this now there's a couple of courses that I've seen too that are showing you how to do this.

And

I'm going to caveat what I say for the rest of this particular little section of the podcast with one thing.

Some people are saying that they're seeing success now that is great if are well done to them. And I would say they should continue to do that because obviously if it's proven successful and some people are saying they're seeing much more success this way, that's great. Obviously if you are seeing that, then you should do more of it. And if you are interested then you should test it. And one of the things that we are going to be adding into the ads for all this call, so it's closed now, but people who signed up the last time will get an AI module quite soon and I'll show you how to use broad unfocused targeting to see whether you can get this to be replicated for you.

So some people are seeing that as successful and that's great, but what I would say is there are some caveats to that and I think it'll be said, I'm healthfully sceptical about whether that is a very good idea. And you also, if you are testing this, please just be careful because the difference between Facebook ads and Amazon ads is that Amazon, it's sometimes hard to give Amazon the money you want to spend on ads based on clicks, not impressions. Facebook on the other hand is based on impressions and Facebook will very happily take your a hundred dollars, your testing budget and it will spend every last cent of that, sometimes a bit more than that sometimes, obviously just bear that in mind. You need to be a little bit careful when you're testing this. I think it is worth testing, but just do that with eyes open and keeping a fairly close eye on your budget and what Facebook is spending.

So yeah, the principle on this is that you go into your ads and you don't tell Facebook what you want to do, you just leave it open. You maybe set agenda if say you're writing romance, you probably want a restricted female, you might want to set some other demographic restrictions. So age perhaps, probably want to set location because well, ever since I've been doing this ads, going to all locations don't tend to work very well. You probably need to isolate uk, us, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, all of that and then direct them to the correct store for them as well. So if you're doing direct sales ads, you want to make sure that your geographically targeting, but that's kind of all you do. And then you let Facebook decide. Now you go a little further. So you're also going to be letting Facebook decide what creative looks like.

So you're going to use something like Dynamic Creative, which is a facility that Facebook's had going for the last couple of years whereby you'll give it three versions of the image, say can do more, 3, 4, 5 versions of your headline, 3, 4, 5 versions of your primary text. And what Facebook will then do is we'll try to identify by testing all of those combinations, it will find what it thinks is the most optimum combination of those assets. Now we've been doing that at SS P F for ages. James has been using dynamic creative for the fuse ads, I've been using them for my ads, not all the time, but quite a lot of the time and it does work well. There's no two ways about it. It's a really good way to test. There are other ways to do it and sometimes you need to give Facebook a little nudge because you want it to make sure that our budget is going into the various variations.

So you might need to kind of tell it that you want to test a particular variation in a particular way, but it is possible to do that and we are definitely seeing that as a useful possible way to split test your ads and find a combination that works. Now one of the issues I have with this new trend is that some people are suggesting that Facebook looks at the creative, analyses the creative and then determines from that analysis which people it should serve the ad to. Now as far as I know, there is no, it's possible that that is happening. I have to say it's possible, but Facebook is a bit of a black box on that and as far as I'm concerned, I have seen nothing that makes me think that that is a thing. I am not aware of anything from Facebook saying that it's actively scanning ad content for contextual information and then from that identifying where the ad needs to go.

I haven't seen that. So I don't think as far as I know that it is looking at the image and working out that the image, your text on an image might say book. It might think it's a book. I'm not getting any kind of confirmation from Facebook that it does that with the text. So that is speculative, it's possible. I'm not going to say it's not happening, but if you ask me to bet at the moment I would say that it isn't happening. So bear that in mind. I don't know that that's happening. So I don't think that however much detail you want to put in your ad Facebook might not know that your ad is any different from an ad for any other widget. So you could think that you are being clever and Facebook you're telling Facebook this is an ad for a small town romance, but Facebook might not see that any differently from an ad for a new vacuum cleaner.

So that's a possibility you need to bear that in mind. Now the other thing is that main assumption about this method of advertising is that Facebook is able to work out which ads or which audiences are responding best to the ads. But that is, I'm afraid, at least in my opinion, is a fundamental problem with this approach. If you tell Facebook that you want to generate traffic, which is what you will typically be doing, if you're sending this traffic, you're sending the ad to readers because you want 'em to go to Amazon to buy your new book, your Facebook goal is going to be traffic. Now what you tell Facebook, you want to optimise for traffic. So in other words, you want to optimise for clicks and you want clicks to be as cheap as possible. What Facebook will do is it will look at how the ad is being served to audiences and it will try to find you the cheapest clicks as it can.

That's what you've told it, you want it to focus on and it will do that. And I've tested this method quite a lot and not just recently, I've been doing this for some time and my experience is that it will get cheap clicks, but the clicks won't necessarily be quality clicks. So it doesn't really matter if you are getting 5 cent per click c p c, if those clicks don't do anything, they're pointless. You're just kind of throwing money away. So you need to bear that in mind. Facebook doesn't know what's happening once the person clicks because what you can't do is you can't put the Facebook pixel on your Amazon sales page. If you could do that, this is a different conversation, but right now you can't. So all Facebook has is one half of the equation. It knows how cheaply it's able to get you the goal that you've asked it to get and it will try to optimise that as far as it can to get you cheaper and cheaper clicks.

What it doesn't know and what it needs to know is how those clicks behave once they get to the sales page. So that's a big problem unless it has that second half of the equation, it really is kind of marketing with a blindfold on it doesn't know what's going on. Now there is a caveat to this. If you are selling off your own website and you have the Facebook pixel installed on your website, and if you don't, you definitely should. This could work because what Facebook then has, you are telling it you're not optimising for traffic, you're optimising for conversions. So kind of for sales really. So if Facebook knows that the traffic that it's sending it will know which of those clicks is leading to a sale if it knows that it can find more people in its audience, like the people who are buying when they get to your store and it can start to serve those ads specifically to those people.

So these are called conversion ads. We do these all the time for SS P F, we have the pixel on the s p F page. We know if we're running a sale,

for example, if one of the ads courses open, we will fairly aggressively market for conversions and Facebook knows of maybe the 1% of people who click on the ad will then go on to the S P F site and buy the ads course it knows that and it can then start to optimise to try and send more of those kinds of people to the page knowing that there's a better chance that they'll end up purchasing and that refines all the time. Now we can't do that with this method because Facebook doesn't have the information from Amazon. It does though if you are selling your own books or audio books or print books, whatever, it's selling off your own page, off your own site.

This is something that I would definitely suggest is worth testing. And it's quite likely that we will be adding some content reasonably soon on selling directly. It's something that we get asked about quite a lot. It's not something that I do for that's a subject for another podcast, but it's something that we see quite a lot people asking how do we actually do that on our own websites and how can we advertise those better? Now we know how to do that, we do it with the S p F site. So it is something that we could teach and we probably will. And this particular method is something that I think we would be interested in exploring a bit more Now anyway, that's my view on this. I thought it'd be easier to do a podcast rather than a detailed Facebook post. I did actually see a post the other day asking for thoughts on the kind of the S p F way of doing Facebook advertising and this new way and I didn't, I didn't reply to that because I thought it'd be better for me to spend a bit more time talking to you about it.

So it's interesting. I think there's lots of reasons why this is worth testing. I think there's probably more reasons why you need to be careful with it at the moment, but interesting, it's definitely becoming more and more easy to rely on Facebook to do certain things when it comes to our ads. And I think that is likely to become, the opportunities will become more impressive and wider and more effective as time goes by. But I would say just be a little bit careful with that right now. One more thing before I sign off is just kind of a general point on ai. Now I would say the law is changing really fast on this and you need to bear that in mind. So I know from speaking to people at the retailers, not just Amazon, I've spoken to some people at other places as well.

This is something that they are wrestling with. It is difficult. I thought Amazon's recent amendment to policy with regards, well there were two were there were a limit on the number of books you can upload per day, which was three very, very good idea. And also the information they're trying to get from authors. Now when you upload a new book as in was it AI generated or AI assisted, I thought that was a really, really excellent change and they thread the needle really well because it's not easy to kind of make that distinction between something that is assisting and something that is actually generating. So the level of involvement of the AI in the creative process, I thought that was really well done. What we don't know is why Amazon is asking for this information at the moment. Is it kind of market research? Is it because they want to have the information at hand for policy changes in the future?

I really don't know, but this is a fast moving situation and

we've got cases right now going through courts with people like George r r Martin and John Grisham and Sarah Silverman actively suing chat G P T because they know that their books have been used to train AI without their permission.

Copyright is something that is going to be changing. I used to be a copyright lawyer 25 years ago. I was a very bad copyright lawyer, but I do have a reasonable understanding of what copyright is and what I can say about that is it is something that has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and copyright law was not written and codified and the courts did not know when they were adjudicating cases that came before this hugely fundamental shift, this massive paradigm shift in what's possible now with large scale language models taking books that they've been trained on and then using that or not using that or the extent that to which they're using that to then work and produce what they would say is new work.

Is that permissible? What's the status of that work once it's being created? How much human input is there in that process? Can it be copyrighted? And this is also the case for images, it will be the case for images of people's faces, the sound of their voices, all of this copyright at the moment is just not capable of regulating this. So that's a fairly long-winded way of saying just keep an eye on the law because things are changing quite fast. We will always try to make sure people know the practical effects of the changes as they happen, but you do need to keep an eye on things. And also, one final thing I think avoid dogma. You can go into the pro AI groups and if you sound any kind of cautionary note, it can be quite hostile. And the same is true in a group like our group, the S P F community or 20 books.

You can say that you are dealing with AI in a particular way and you will get jumped on. We see this, well, we had, as I said, a webinar a couple of weeks ago where James and I talked about using AI in marketing and whenever we mention ai, we will get people jumping up or down and saying that this is disgraceful, we are accelerating our own extinction, all of that. And probably if you are watching this on YouTube, if you look down in the comments, I wouldn't be that surprised if someone is saying that right now as to how this is irresponsible me to talk about AI even to talk about it. Now obviously that's nuts. The genie is out of the bottle now. We can't avoid talking about it. This is a relevant thing we need to be aware of, but just think about both sides.

I think I see value in the pro camp and in the anti cap. I think the cost to try and t is somewhere down the middle. So just bear that in mind. Don't get your legal advice from people on Facebook. That's another really bad idea. And just be flexible and open-minded because that's going to be the position I think that is going to do you the best in the medium to the long term. Alright, so there we go. That's 35 minutes of me waffling about ai. If there's anything that you would like me to cover in future episodes of the show where it is, just me, it's not James is having a rest, he's not entering anybody, it's just me talking about publishing and marketing and writing in the 21st century, then please drop me a line at mark self-publishing formula.com. You can also come into the Facebook group, leave me a comment, YouTube comments.

I check now and again, but not too often, but you might be able to catch me there as well. But those are pretty good ways to grab my attention and tell me what would you like me to talk about. I can talk about anything at all really with varying degrees of knowledge, but I will leave it there for now. I hope this has been interesting and a useful way to spend half an hour. And James will be back with me again next week for a normal episode of the show. And then I'll be back maybe three or four weeks to do another one of these ones. So I'll leave it there now. I hope you are well. I hope you've had a good day writing while you're looking forward to a good day in front of your keyboard and you get lots of words down. But I'm going to dash off now. I've got to go to London this evening. I'm seeing Muse in concert, which is going to be fun. And I'm going to be doing a bit of writing on the train as a bit of a throwback to what I used to do before I went full-time several years ago now. I can't even remember how long it was. Anyway, I'll stop waffling and say, have a great day, a great rest of the week, and we'll be back next Friday with the next episode of the Self-Publishing Show. Bye-bye.

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