SPS-376: Reedsy’s Amazon Ads for Authors – with Ricardo Fayet
Marketing your book seems like a confusing endeavour- with platform differences and confusion towards reaching new readers. Ricardo Fayet joins us to spread his wisdom on amazon ads, how they work, and how it may benefit you to use them.
- User-friendliness of Amazon Ads
- How Amazon ads are charged differently from Facebook ads
- Whether or not to use custom text in your ad campaign
- Using ASIN’s to further reach new readers
- How to judge where to place your Amazon ads
Resources mentioned in this episode:
SPS LIVE: Get your tickets to the best self-publishing conference in Europe on 20-21 June, 2023.
THIS WEEK’S BLOG POST: How to Deliver Solicited Writing Feedback
PATREON: Self Publishing Formula Show’s Patreon page
SPS-376: Reedsy’s Amazon Ads for Authors - with Ricardo Fayet
Speaker 1: Want to sell more books? Make sure you are at the Self-Publishing Show Live this summer.
Meet the biggest names in self-publishing at Europe's largest conference for
independent authors. Enjoy two days packed with special guests, an exclusive
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Speaker 2: On this edition of The Self-Publishing Show.
Ricardo Fayet: Most people are going to work on their ads once a week, once a month, and they might
not detect that new release studies trending in the charts. If you follow your
market, as soon as that release hits or that pre-order starts trending, you can
add it as a target. And so that one's going to be very cheap because few people
are targeting it, but it gets a lot of visibility. So the more you stay on top of
trends in your market, the more you get to take advantage of small
opportunities like that.
Speaker 2: Publishing is changing. No more gatekeepers, no more barriers. No one standing between
you and your readers. Do you wanna make a living from your writing? Join indie
bestseller Mark Dawson and first time author James Blatch as they shine a light
on the secrets of self-publishing success. This is the Self-Publishing Show.
There's never been a better time to be a writer.
James Blatch : Hello and welcome. It is the Self-Publishing Show with me, James Blatch
Mark Dawson: And me Mark Dawson.
James Blatch : Freshly returned from sunny Seattle. Actually looked, has a reputation for being grey and
miserable, but it looked quite nice in your photograph. Seattle.
Mark Dawson: No, it was, it was grey and miserable. Oh, it was, I say and cold as well. And I'd forgotten
how hilly Seattle is. It is extremely hilly. Is that,
James Blatch : You sound annoy. You sound annoyed by that. I mean, it's got a volcano there, haven't
Mark Dawson: I quite enjoyed it. It was it was nice. I had a, I got there about midnight the day before I,
so I went to see to, so I went to Seattle, see, Amazon just called Seattle though,
which is probably that right? Mm-Hmm.
Monday about midnight, and then I had Tuesday morning and Wednesday
morning to myself. And then Tuesday afternoon I spent it with quite a few
Amazonians who were there for a kind of a global team catch up from the K D P
side of things with, you know, with ul I've met before some I hadn't. So I had a
panel with penny Reid, who's the indie authors very, you know, very successful
indie author. And then two members of the team who work on Debbie
So she's a very well known romance writer, a kind of, I suppose Mills and Boish in the says we sold
millions of books, so had a very interesting panel with them and then went out
for a, a bite to eat with the Amazon team and the other panellists after that.
And then, yeah, then on the Wednesday, I, I, I had a bit of a visit of time to
myself, so I won different Seattle, very nice Pike Place market. And I needed
some running shoes because I was going to I, I bought my cleats to do a Peloton
glass and there's a Peloton bike at the hotel, but they didn't have cleats. They
had cages. Okay. I didn't, and I didn't have shoes. I had to go and find a sports
shop and buy some running shoes so I could, I could
James Blatch : That's annoying to, to cart cleats all the way across the planet for them to be used.
Mark Dawson: Well, dude, it's probably, it's interesting. I'll, I'll remember them. If mistake get, I'll just
ask, you know, what, what you need to use. But it does make more sense
because not many people would Yeah. Bring plates. So yeah, but no, I, I loved it
and I I and did
James Blatch : You guys the Museum of Flight at Boeing Field?
Mark Dawson: Surprisingly not, no. But I, I did come with you. I came at night flight on the, the
Wednesday for the first time. I bought some melatonin at c CVS in the States,
and I took one five milligramme tablet and I had zero jet lag, nothing. It was,
wow. It was unbelievable. Normally coming for those of us who fly east, it's
usually the day after is a wa is just a washout for me. Yeah. And, and I think, you
know, for us, generally when we come back it's always quite difficult, but I had
absolutely no jet lag at all. In fact, there as much more jet lag going the other
James Blatch : Wow. And you imported some drugs illegally as well, so I hope there's no one from the
border force listening to this.
Mark Dawson: No, you can buy them. You can take them in. You can't buy them in in the uk. So you
need a prescription. You
James Blatch : Can bring them in, can you? You can
Mark Dawson: Bring them in, yeah. Yeah.
James Blatch : But you can't sell them on eBay. Probably,
Mark Dawson: Probably can't do that. No,
James Blatch : No. Oh, well that's good to hear. And I'm pleased you got over to Amazon. I know we've
got some stuff in the background that hopefully we'll be able to announce soon
it's happening with them. Obviously we're key educators in the world of
Amazon ads and other platforms, so it's a good conversation for us to have and
they're quite an important company for us authors, aren't they? Amazon? So
Mark Dawson: Amazon. Yeah, they are
James Blatch : Yeah, it's funny, I was thinking about the weather in Seattle, so yeah, you always have this
in my, I always think of the nineties grungy music and, and bad weather. But we
went to Vancouver recently, so my daughter's out in Canada and I love
Vancouver. And whenever I think of Vancouver, I think Blue Sky is lovely and
they're so close those two places in the same weather system effectively. But
something about the reputation. Anyway, there you go. And it was grey and
raining in Vancouver when we were there, but it's all about image, obviously.
They've, they've done, they've done some branding work, something like that.
Okay, we have a couple of things to announce. We are talking, funnily enough,
just to coincide and the whole, because this whole thing is planned and very
smooth. We are talking Amazon ads today.
That is the main substance of our interview. And there's going to be some really good takeaways from
that. I'll tell you my top takeaway after the interview coming up in a moment
before then, would like to say that we are launching the digital version of the
SPS conference, the Self-Publishing Show Live London 2023, which is taking
place on June the 20th and 21st. If you can't attend in person, wherever you are
in the world, we're going to give you that experience online. So this year we're
doing it different. It's not simply a, the recorded sessions. We, they will be the,
the heart of what we're offering here, but they'll be streamed in conference
style in a Facebook group where you will attend with other people. I should say
at the beginning, if you can't make that live streaming, which is going to be
August 3rd, fourth,
Mark Dawson: If you want to,
James Blatch : You don't have to be there for that. You'll get access to everything anyway. But we think
it'd be a good idea to watch them together if you can make that, I can get the
conference experience to have some Q and As the speakers will be in that group
as far as we can get them to be. And in addition to that, there'll be stuff that you
don't get at the conference. We've got some additional sessions. We're putting
those together at the moment, so it's a really good useful ticket. We have an
early bird price to make it as accessible as possible to as many people as
possible. And if you go to self-publishing formula.com/digital, just the word
digital you will get access to that or you can see how you can get access to that.
So all you get at the moment is an email explaining to you where it's going to be
and when it's going to be. And as, so that will take place on August the third and
fourth. The early bird prices will go up until June on that, actually, $75 I should
say. I didn't say that.
Mark Dawson: Yeah. So yeah, it's good. We've got some excellent speakers with the, the conference.
We'll, we'll do a kind of, we're thinking about doing maybe some kind of live
webinar type deal when we, we might discuss the, the, yeah, the people who
are coming to speak at the, at the live show. But there will be some additional
sessions that we're going to add for everyone. So if you go to the live show,
you'll get a digital ticket as a part of your as part of your, your ticket there. So
you'll get that as well. But if you, you can't make the show and you'd like to see
the sessions, plus of course the the additional content that we're putting
together, then you need to get a digital ticket. And
James Blatch : Yeah, can I just underline that? Cause a really important point. If you've got a ticket to the
show, don't buy a digital ticket because it's included. Yes. yes, in fact, we have a
good list of speakers. I'm looking at them now. I dunno who we've announced
and who we haven't announced. I'm not going to say anything at this stage, but
there's a really good set of speakers particularly looking forward to the Kindle
Storyteller panel because they are a really interesting set of of authors. And I
interviewed Claire Lek last night for this very show she'll be on in a few weeks.
So you've got a good range of authors and she didn't actually win it, she'd
nominated this year, so she won't be on that panel. But it is a good range of, of
authors to to hear from. Yeah, looking forward to it.
Mark Dawson: Yeah, it'll be, it'll be good. So yeah, had a, as I spoken to Bella Andre, we've, we've
announced that she's going to be speaking on the first day. And yeah, Bella will
be, I've never actually, I've never met Bella before, as I said before, but we've,
you know, been, I think we've known each other kind of through email for quite
a while now. But I think she'll, she's got something quite say on translation and
foreign markets that will be quite interesting.
James Blatch : Yeah. Great. Okay. we have to move on to our interview. So our interview today is with
an a familiar sound on this podcast and indeed self-publishing show live, which
is Ricardo Fette, who is one of the co-founders of rti.com. Rti.Com is a
marketplace for expertise for indie authors in particular is where I get my
editors from, by the way. A lot of people get their cover designers from there as
well. But Ricardo has written a book on Amazon ads. He and his partner, actually
Sarah, both work are, are knee deep in Amazon ads at the moment. So they're
big area of expertise. The book is excellent. I think I have it here. I can show it as
look as I'm even a picture of Ricardo. Yeah, it's great cover on the front of it.
Really good cover. It's a really excellent book. And Ricardo is a very useful
person to speak about Amazon now. It's a very important platform for us. So
let's hear from Ricardo then Mark and I will be back for a quick chat at the end
of the interview.
Speaker 2: This is the Self-Publishing Show. There's never been a better time to be a writer.
James Blatch : Ricardo Fayet, welcome back to the Self-Publishing Show. It's been a little while since
we've had you on here. We see you quite a lot. We see you around the world.
You are an international man of mystery though, aren't you? You're never in
one place for very long.
Ricardo Fayet: Well, I could see the same thing about you, James. But yes, it's, it's been a while and it's
always a pleasure to come back on the show.
James Blatch : The Austin Powers of of the indie world, Ricardo.
Ricardo Fayet: Exactly.
James Blatch : Okay, so I think you're in Madrid today. Lovely City of Madrid. We went there last year.
Was that last year? I think 20 books was in, it
Ricardo Fayet: Was last
James Blatch : Year. I had the most fantastic mozzarella. I keep going on about it. I'll stick next to
Caroline. And who was, it was either side of me. I mean, I thought, yeah, I can't
remember. Anyway Caroline Pand. I had the most delicious mozzarella. Did you
choose that restaurant?
Ricardo Fayet: I did. I did. That was a, a rii sponsored dinner.
James Blatch : Can I go back?
Ricardo Fayet: Yes, absolutely. You're invited whenever you want.
James Blatch : Wow. I've met all, every piece of mozzarella I've had since has been a let down
James Blatch : Anyway,
Ricardo Fayet: It's, it's, it's crazy how to come to Madrid to Yes, I know Mozzarella. Wrong country.
James Blatch : Yeah, but there you go. But that's how the world works now. It's an international world.
You've gotta be open-minded.
Ricardo Fayet: It is.
James Blatch : Yeah. You can get good cheddar cheese in France. Probably not. Okay, look, let's let's talk
indie publishing cause it's probably more relevant than cheese. And we are
going to talk about Amazon ads because you, if you're watching on YouTube,
you can see me holding it up in screen. Ricardo, there he is. Let's a little
caricature of Ricardo on the front. Cover his book Amazon Ads for Authors
which is a really, really good well put together. I can vouch for this book on
Amazon ads. Thorough briefing on the subject. Always slightly worrisome
writing on platforms like Amazon ads or Facebook because they change the
platform from time to time. Yeah, it's a little bit easy for us probably to update a
course instantly than it is once you've got a paperback, but it's been fairly stable
for a while and I think the changes won't be dramatic in the future. They'll be
small. So but that, that aside this is an excellent description and goes into
granular detail of all. And there's a lot, there's a lot more to the ad Amazon Ads
platform than it looks like when you first use it.
Ricardo Fayet: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. At first I wanted to write about Facebook ads because I used
those more. And Amazon ads seem quite simple and it's still a fairly simple
platform in, in comparison to, to Google and Facebook. But that, that
simpleness in the background makes it really hard to use when you are using it
as a user. Because on Facebook and Google nowadays, you can rely a lot more
on their algorithms and let them do the job of, you know, optimising the
targeting, the bidding, the budget and all of that on Amazon. You gotta do all
that yourself. Yeah. so it's, it's a great thing because ev all these decisions are in
your hands, but since there's no great optimization on their end you have a lot
of work on your hands, which is why I thought of writing a book on that topic.
James Blatch : Yeah, I mean, you say that there is an auto campaign option in Amazon, and I seem to
remember the first time I played with that, it was like the worst thing to do. And
now I always set one up alongside my targeted stuff and it usually does pretty
well. They, they've obviously done some work on the background, that auto
campaign. I've seen some good results from 'em
Ricardo Fayet: There. So there's two factors that played first Yeah. That improved their their auto
targeting algorithms. And the second thing is, when you first set it up, your
account was new. So Amazon had, Amazon advertising had no data whatsoever
from you or your book as to who or what they should target. And in fact, every
time I work with with new authors when I look at the search terms that their
first auto campaigns go after, it's very, very random and broad stuff like Kindle
books, freebook, et cetera. Cause Amazon has no idea what to go after. So they
just like start fishing a little bit everywhere. Once you, the books starts selling,
once the Amazon advertising accounts starts gathering some data on which
keywords attract clicks, which keywords get a good CT r which keywords
generate sales, et cetera, then the auto targeting algorithms become a lot more
precise and a lot more effective.
James Blatch : Interesting. That's such a logical point that I didn't think about. Yes. And I suppose
Amazon ads now knows that I'm a genius writer and knows which absolutely.
Which discerning readers to send my books to, which is why that's working. So
that's good. Yeah. Now in terms of, of the rest of the campaigns, the manual
campaigns, this is, I mean this is, you go into the meat and this, and you
mentioned search terms there, but I think we should probably start fairly
broadly. Bearing in mind some people have just looked at these advertising
platforms and thought, I dunno, I don't understand a thing about it. So can you
give us, it's a big question, this,
can you give us a little overview of the Amazon ads platform? What's on offer?
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, that's, that is a, I can give you a five hour overview. Yeah.
platform no, for me, the key points are so first positive is that you reach readers
at a point and at a place where they intend to purchase something, or at least
they are shopping, you know, so you re you reach them during a shopping
mindset, which is a huge difference to other platforms like like Facebook or
Instagram or even TikTok. The second point is that you have complete control
over where you place your ads. Once you know exactly how the targeting works,
right? You can target authors, you can target books, you can target specific
formats. So I could place my ads if I wanted just on the US Kindle book edition of
Lee Chaley bespoke, for example. If I wanted, I could target just that.
And finally, I think the main thing to understand about Amazon advertising is that it's a paper click
platform. So Amazon will only charge you when if and when readers click on
your ads, which on one hand it's great because you can get a tonne of exposure
for free if people don't click on it, you can get a lot of impressions. But on the
other hand you gotta keep that into account when you think about Amazon
advertising because they only make money if people click on your ads. So
obviously they're going to give a lot more visibility to accounts, campaigns, and
targets that are attracting a lot of clicks because if they just give away
impressions to ads that are not generating clicks, they are effectively wasting
real estate on which they make no money because no one clicks on it.
James Blatch : Yeah. And that's such an important distinction that people need to understand between
that and Facebook ads, for instance, where they pay you for impressions and
then you kind of divide that by the number of clicks to, to work out how much a
click has cost you. And here's an interesting yeah, upshot of that. I think person
experiences that I, I'll look for as low as possible in clicks in Facebook ads, and
that's a pretty good guide to whether they're being effective or not. So at the
moment, I'm about 14, 15 pence on some of my campaigns, which is great, and
that's profitable for me, but I actually, I can be 50, 60 pence and cents in
Amazon ads and be profitable. And I dunno if that's a, a result of the fact that
the clicks are, well, they are obviously more valuable. Maybe that goes back to
your first point, which is they're, they're, they're being clicked on by somebody
who's in a buying zone as opposed to be on Facebook or TikTok or somewhere
where they, they, they just click on it out of interest whilst they're doing
Ricardo Fayet: That's right. Yeah. I think we, we can put it down to, to that. And also they know what
they're clicking on right on Facebook, depending on what image you use if you
use images without the cover on it if you don't use your blurb or like, if you
don't make it clear, it's a book. And this goes mostly for like sci-fi and fancy
authors who use a lot of, you know, images like that and can track clicks from
people who think it's a video game or who think it's a movie or who think, you
know, it's something other than a book. And then they learn on Amazon, they
say it's a book, I'm not interested in that. Obviously when people click on
Amazon on your cover when they see it on an ad, they know it's a bug and
there's absolutely zero confusion there. They know the book title, they know
the cover, and that click has been attracted by things that they will see on the
lending page, the cover, the title, the amount of the reviews, the ratings, so they
know exactly what they're clicking on. And that makes I think the conversion a
lot higher from click to purchase on Amazon ads. Yeah.
James Blatch : So you can pay more for a click and it'd be worth more. And that's so important in
Facebook ads where you have more control over the environment. You say the
text and the, the imagery. Yeah. If that doesn't dovetail with what they get to in
the end, that's a big problem in, in Facebook advertising, as you say, that's
basically solved for you because you have very limited control over what they
see. You do get some control over the text.
Although Janet Margo always said, don't bother putting custom text in, just leave the advert as it is.
What's your view on that?
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, I say pretty much the same thing in the book. And not necessarily because I don't
like custom text, it's because right now Amazon has two different types of
campaigns. There's custom campaigns, which only allow you to advertise one
product. You can advertise several formats of that product, the ebook, the
paperback, the hardback for example. But it can only be the one book. And the
reason for that is probably that if you were advertising several different books,
you would have to come up with custom texts that would work for all these
different books, right? So Amazon restricts these custom texts campaigns to
only one one book per per campaign. And you don't have ad groups in those
campaigns either. So all, all your targeting all your targets, everything is in that
one campaign. The other type of campaign is standard campaigns.
And there you have ad groups. So you can, you know, organise your campaign a lot better. You can split
your targets in different ad groups and you can advertise a bunch of different
products within the same ad group, a bunch of different books. So you could
have, for example, advertise all the books in the series, but you cannot use
custom text. And for me the second one is a lot more valuable standard
campaigns because of the reporting on sales. And can reads can unlimited
reads. Amazon will only report on the sales and the reads of the products that
are advertised in the campaign or ad group. In other words, if you advertise only
book one and that ad generates, you know, a sale of book one, book two, book
3, 4, 5, thanks to read through you're only going to see that sale of book one.
You're not going to see the other ones. You, you have to infer that through your read through data and
play with estimates and do mathematical calculations to, you know, judge your
roi, which you explained very well in the, in the course. However, if you
advertise all the books, you know, in the series, if a reader purchases books one
through five within 14 days of the click, all these purchases are going to be
reflected in the Amazon advertising dashboard. So you're going to actually have
the total sales data that your click generated within those 14 days, that
conversion window. And that does two things that makes your numbers look a
lot better on the dashboard, obviously, because you have a tonne more sales
and reads. And also it gives you a much better estimate of actually how much
money those ads generated for you. Because read through can vary, you know,
between organic sales and, and paid sales.
Whereas there at least you have a lot more data. I wish they used a longer window than 14 days after
the click, because if you have a 20 book series, it's unlikely that a reader's going
to read the first 20, the whole series between within 14 days after clicking. But I
mean, I've, I've been advertising some, you know, some fantasy series and I see
even on epic fantasy sales of like four or five bucks within that within that
window. So I think it gives a pretty accurate account of of read through sales.
And that data for me is a lot more valuable than the opportunity to use custom
James Blatch : Yeah.
What do you think about putting in the multiple products to a campaign then? You mentioned that's an
option if you're not using custom techs?
I mean, I, so I set up a campaign most recently and just just chose my, I've got three books of it. So I just
chose my, my three editions of the, of book one. But then I hesitated because I
have seen examples of people putting in all their series, I mean every book in
the series in there. Does that, that ha the, the advantages, I guess the
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah.
James Blatch : Is there an advantage in terms of, of, of clicks? And I dunno what I'm asking here really,
but I suppose, I suppose I can answer this almost myself. No, if it is a good
question or not is I
Ricardo Fayet: It is a good question. Okay. so ideally if Amazon were a platform has evolved as Facebook
or Google, they would be able to use their data to be able to serve the right app
to the right reader. For example, Amazon knows that this customer who's
browsing their site purchases 90% eBooks and 10% paperbacks. If you're
advertising all three formats of your book in there, they should logically show
the ebook to them, right? Rather than paperback or the hardback. Same thing if
that customer has purchased your first book already, they shouldn't show them
an ad for the, for the first book. They should show them an ad for the second
book. Now I don't think Amazon does this. And when I asked Janet, she, I think
she said that they don't do it. They don't leverage this kind of data as least they
didn't at that time.
But it, it is so logical and makes so much sense for them to do it. And it benefits everyone because
they're going to make more money. We're going to make more money like
that. I, I just, it has to happen in the near future. Right. That is also why I, I
prefer to advertise everything because I think Amazon has a lot more data than
we have on the actual customer who's using the ad. And so even if they don't do
it now they might very well start using that data to show the right can of add to
the right reader. And in the past when I had accounts that I had struggled
scaling, what I did was very basic. I created a auto campaign with all the books
from the author in there and that skyrocketed the spend and the auto campaign
did really well. Wow. so it seems that putting more books in there, giving
Amazon more choice for stuff to advertise actually works really well for for
scaling and, and keeping a good roi. So yeah, if you've never tried it, I would try
James Blatch : I'm going to, now I'm making a note. I'm going to go and add in my my other books, all
the formats. Okay. so, so we've touched, we've, we've gone into a little bit of
detail here, so there are, but just taking one step back, there are for, for most
authors who log onto the Amazon ad platform, there are two types of
campaign. One is brands and one is products. We, we've always said stay away
from brands for authors. It's, it's not necessarily going to be a profitable area for
you. And stick with products. Is that your view? Or you can, I can see you
putting your head side side,
Ricardo Fayet: Yes. I would say start with products definitely. And then venture into brands. Once you've
got a good understanding of like how sponsored products work and you've
found some targets that work well in sponsored products and you've been
advertising for a few months already, then you can test sponsored brands. I
have, I would agree with you that with the majority of people sponsored
products are going to work better. I have some clients special on the nonfiction
side of things for whom sponsored brands work much better and get by far the
best ROI and slightly harder to scale. Because obviously the the impressions are
more limited there. It's only the, the one big placement at the top. But the
conversion is really, really solid for, for some of these authors. And again, more
on the non-fiction form, so worth testing. But yeah, since, since sponsored
products tends to work better, I would say start there and then, you know, you
can test sponsor brands and if you're real really bored and you don't know what
to do, you can even test lock screen ads. Yes. And 99% of the time that's not
going to work. But you know, it's there. So test it. Yeah.
James Blatch : So I don't get the lock screen ads option on my my, I don't think I'd get 'em on my UK
account. I might get them on the US account. Yeah. But yes, low lock screen,
which is on your Kindle and I have seen authors I know pop up on there, so I
know they are, they are used. But the other option is you can, I think there's
something when you buy your Kindle, you can pay a bit extra and you don't see
the ads, do you?
Ricardo Fayet: I have no idea about that. I
James Blatch : Think that's the case. Someone, someone will email and correct me if I'm wrong, but in
fact I think I may have done that cause I haven't seen an ad on my new Kindle
for a long time. I just see the cover of the book. There you go. Which is bad, isn't
it? Opted out
say your authors Ricardo, we haven't mentioned REI yet, which is where you
come from. We'll talk about rti towards the end of the interview. But you do I
gather you also run a bit like an agency ads for authors?
Ricardo Fayet: So I used to, I used to moonlight on our, on our Rii marketplace as a freelance marketer
on there to test the product from freelancer perspective and also to to work
one-on-one with authors. Because I, obviously I do, I do the marketing for edi,
but I've always been interested in, you know, the marketing challenges for an
author and we write a lot of content on our blog around marketing. We do
webinars and we, we create a lot of resources. And I wanted those to be
informed by personal experience, actually working with authors. So I, I did work
with authors for a while. Now I don't do it anymore. We have other marketers
on Rii who do and we've got several Amazon app specialists actually on the
marketplace. And yeah, I have passed on a lot of Michael, my previous clients to
them so that I, I can focus on rei. Okay. Book is written out. So
James Blatch : Yes, you've been hands on. Okay, let's talk about sponsored products ad. So, so we've
talked about the auto campaign, which is a good place to start to dip your toe
in. And unlike Facebook ads, it won't necessarily run away with your spend
again because it's only going to charge you when you click. In fact, one of the
frustrations of Amazon ads is getting it to spend money, is getting it to scale up
and get the clicks.
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah. that is one of the common frustrations. As, as we mentioned in the beginning, like
o auto campaigns work really well, but you gotta give Amazon some data first.
So I always recommend setting some manual campaigns along with with the
auto campaigns, but after, sometimes they, the auto campaigns tend to work a
lot better. You gotta watch your customer search terms, that's one of the great
things on Amazon across all campaigns. But in particular auto campaigns where
you don't know exactly what Amazon is targeting, you can see which search
terms and products the auto campaign targeted. So you can see exactly what
generated sales sometimes, especially in the beginning. Again it can be your
author name or your book title, which are generating clicks and sales. And that's
not necessarily a bad thing. But it also means that the auto targeting reaching
anyone new, right?
It's reaching people who are already aware of you and who are searching for your brand keywords. So
that might not be what you want to get out of your auto campaign. And if it's
not, then you can use those, put those in as negative keywords to avoid your
auto targeting campaigns, targeting those. But yeah, they're fairly, fairly easy to,
I mean, they're incredibly easy to set up the auto campaigns. The only thing you
have to play a little bit with are the, are the bids for the four different
categories, the close match, loose match, substitute, and compliments.
James Blatch : Yeah. Do you get those options with the auto campaign?
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, you can customize your bids for substitutes, compliments loose and close.
James Blatch : Okay. Oh, obviously I hadn't dealt that far into it. I've seeded all the power to the
machine. But when we, when we start targeting, and in fact, I forgot you said
this earlier, but you've reminded me for a newbie starting out is a good, good
thing to start with manual targeting, leaving the auto because Amazon doesn't
have that data. So, so let's talk about manual targeting then. Different options.
Just describe the different options that we have to set targets.
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, you to, you can effectively target three different things. First one is keywords. So
keywords can be anything from what I call search keywords. And these are
phrases that you would use to describe your book or your genre or your tropes
or things like that. So little keywords for surprise baby romance would be like
surprise baby, surprise baby. Romance depending on the level of stimulus, you
can include immuno words like steamy, clean, wholesome, et cetera. So these
would be kind of search keywords, right? Then you've got book titles. So instead
you, you put in the, the whole title as a keyword author names series titles. So
anything related to actual products on the store can be targeted as keywords as
well. If you want to get really granular with your targeting, you can use ASIN so
the actual identification numbers that Amazon uses for each product.
And there you can target, as I said, just like the Kindle edition of the latest e child book. If you put in
ASIN one thing to know is series also have series ASIN so if you wanna target a
whole series and appear on a series page as an ad, you can target the series as I
n and other people do that. And finally you can target categories. So when
you're targeting the whole category, your ads basically can appear on any of the
books in that category. So it's very, very broad as a targeting method. And I
usually don't recommend playing with it until you have some experience with,
with Amazon ads just because of its, it's kind of broadness for me. Yeah,
categories are a way to find new keywords and i i to target. So they're a, a sort
of prospecting tool rather than than a campaign focused on roi.
James Blatch : Yeah, and there's a bit of work to do here in, in generating these, these keywords and
ASINs, the ASINs in particular, I have spent many an hour copy and pasting
ASINs, which basically has to be done one by one. So if you see a, I mean there's
a guy called Windgate, Jonathan Wino I think, who, who writes Military Cold
War is very similar to mine. So I just, he's got like six or seven books. It didn't
take that long, but I had to copy and paste from the URL or the product page,
each ASIN individually. And then I have a campaign that simply targets this page
when anyone goes on this page. Hopefully I've got a reasonable chance of my ad
showing there, so that can be worth it. But the same thing also applies to the
other areas you talked about. I mean author names.
So I use a service called Merchant Words, which is not particularly cheap, but you can put in Tom Clancy
and it'll generate 150 search terms that people have used, have ended up at
Tom Clancy. Actually, I dunno exactly how it generates them. But it does, and
you can then copy and paste them in. But if you don't wanna pay a service like
Merchant words, there's a bit of graph, a bit of time involved, which is it, it's not
done at the point where you're creating your campaign, you sit with a
spreadsheet open in a, in an afternoon with a cup of coffee and do this. But it's
worth it. Yeah.
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, it is. I think before you pay with, you pay for professional tools, you should kind of
do that yourself. And it depends like how much of a budget you have and how
broad you want to go, right? If, if you can afford to lose a bit of money in the
beginning, you can take the, the list of all your also boats of your book and you
just go through them. You copy the author name, you copy the book title, you
copy the asin, you put those in your spreadsheet, and then you create
campaigns where you paste all that information in. It's, you are really conscious
about budget and you want to stay as relevant as possible in your ads. You can
even go as far as like selecting the books in your also books that have the very
similar style of cover to yours, right?
Because that or similar style of blurb or that evoke the same tropes in the blurb. So you can go very
granular. The more granular you go, the more time you have to spend obviously,
but the likelihood it is that your ads are going to target very, very relevant
readers and so you're going to waste less money on clicks that are less likely to
convert basically. On the, on the flip side, you might, you know, lose out on
some books or author names that you didn't know about as you thought were
actually bad targets when they, they do work. Sometimes you, it's hard to guess
what's going to work on Amazon ads. That's one thing I've learned. But yeah, it
depends exactly on like how broad you want to go in the beginning based on
like how much money you can afford to lose.
James Blatch : Yeah. It's also worth checking I think the amount of traffic that's going to the, the pages
and the names that you are coming up with. Because I have gone through this
process before and you realize that okay, this author is on very similar genre to
me, but he's another indie author, he doesn't chart particularly high. And so you
set, you go laborious. He set up this campaign and then spend two pounds 10 in
30 days because there simply isn't the traffic there. So it's worth looking at
some of the bigger bigger pages, but there's a balance there, right Ricardo,
because if we're choosing Lee Child and, and actually Tom Clancy, it's simply
going to be very expensive for us. And that that is the same as it would be for
any other targeting in Facebook's tom.
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah that's the issue. There are some authors out there with very long thriller series. We
can't afford to spend one pound per click on on each child targets because
they're going to make that money back. Like Mark, mark himself can probably
afford to spend one pound per click in some places for Targets that Convert.
Well, if you have only three, four books, you probably cannot afford to spend
that much Brick lake. So you have to look for for other targets. And as you say,
you have to find the balance between that unknown author who's going to get
you a couple thousand impressions a month. And and those very, very big
names to get fill in the middle names the, the emerging trends. And that's why I
think the authors who are most successful with Amazon ads are authors who
really keep a very close eye on their market, know who which authors are
emerging, which authors have just released a book.
When a book gets released, most people are going to work on their ads, you know, once a week, once
a month once every two weeks. And there might not detect that new release
that is trending in the charts. If you follow your market as soon as that release
hits or that pre-order starts trending, you can add it as a target, right? And so
that one's going to be very cheap because few people are targeting it, but it
gets a lot of visibility. So the more you stay on top of your, of of trends in your
market, the more you can take advantage of small opportunities like that.
James Blatch : Yeah. So really good things. Keep an eye on big, big author's release dates, as you say be
be there on day one. So as we are speaking today, the 21st of February, Lucy
Scores released the second book in her Things. We never got over series, which
hit number one and stayed at number one for a long time on and off through
the last year. So if you are in contemporary romance, and like you said, we a few
days before, others may catch onto this, you could get there'll be a lot of traffic
going to those product poses today. In fact, I keep looking, I'm sure it'll be
number one at some point today. Good luck to Lucy.
Where else do we look? Have you got any top tips for where we look to keep on top of this and, and get
the right trends, catch the trends, and get the right keywords?
Ricardo Fayet: Yes. I recommend, you know, you can follow authors on book pub and you're, you'll get
an alert when they have a new release. So I recommend doing that for all the
big or medium size authors in your genre so that again, you're among the first to
when these, when these authors have a new release out and then you've got
the hot new releases list, these are fantastic. Ideally I would have someone an
assistance for example scrape those once a month. Cause you know, books stay
on there for 30 days after they release. So scrape those once a month to see if
there's anything just to, and create a, a new campaign every month for those or
an ad group.
James Blatch : Are you talking about the hot new releases in your genre?
Ricardo Fayet: Your genre? Yes.
James Blatch : Yeah,
Ricardo Fayet: Absolutely. In your, in the category that most that best defines your genre. Yeah.
James Blatch : And you say scrape, which is a bit of a technical word as well. I mean, how, how do you
physically get these, how do you do that, get these into your spreadsheet and
into your campaigns?
Ricardo Fayet: So I know there are tools out there. I've never used those tools. I've either done it myself
or I've hired an assistant to do it. And you can go on like pre ander marketplaces
cheap freelancer marketplaces where you can get people for relatively cheap
price per hour to just do data entry. You tell them I want you to list in a
spreadsheet, all the book titles. And the reason why I don't use tools and I use
people instead is a lot of book titles are going to have comments or dots in
them or like punctuation elements or they're going to have the series book one
and whatever as part of the title. And we, we don't want that for the Amazon
ads, right? We don't want, they're not going to accept punctuation and the
keywords. And also we, we want like the basic of of the title. We don't even
need a subtitle for nonfiction for example. So I tell the people who do that to
just ignore punctuation and to give me something cleaner can just copy and
paste in there. So I know there are tools out there, but I would recommend
anyone to just hire an assistant for that. It's going to be more effective.
James Blatch : And I Is that is Reed to your place to find that? Or are you talking about fiber.com and
places like that
Ricardo Fayet: More? Yeah, fibre upwork freelancer.com. Yeah, more places like that. I use, I use
Upwork for example, in the past for that sort of job.
James Blatch : Okay. And the the the tool that we, I think recommend we're still recommending is
import io, but they've changed their pricing model. And we're probably going to
take it out of our course cause I think it's beyond the scope of both in
independent authors, they used to, it used to get like a thousand free bits of
data. And now I think it's a, it's very expensive. We need some collectives, don't
we? Well, I suppose that's what happens with somebody on five.com. They have
the import io and merchant word subscriptions and then they have multiple
clients. And so that is a, a better way of doing it. Ford authors. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I wanna talk about the other options that you get. We're not, this is obviously not
going to be comprehensive. It's a, it's a long book and it's not too long. It's, it's
the right length, but it's a significant, significant book. So we can't go through
everything, but I wanna talk about some of the highlights. One of the other
things that people are faced with then they're first setting up a campaign when
they're making the choices is some control over the bid. So you set your bids
and we'll talk about that and then you can say whether you want them to adjust
lower or adjust higher and lower and so on.
So should we talk about bids? Cause it's quite a big area. First of all, how do we come up with a, a
default bid for the search terms, the keywords we put in?
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, that's, that's a tough question. And there's, it's really that there's a lot of advice in
the book on like optimizing bids afterwards. But for setting the first bids, it's a
little bit hit and miss. I think you should ask other authors in your genre what
kind of bids they're using and these aren't the bids you should set and forget
about. You should always be optimizing for your case. But it can give you an idea
of what you are going to need to bid in order to start getting impressions. The
goal in the beginning is just to get impressions, get clicks, and start getting an
idea of what works and what doesn't. So if again, you're very, very budget
conscious, then you can set relatively low bids for your market in, in non-
competitive I genres, like in, in actual niches, you can get away with bids as low
as like 30, you know, 30 cents 40 cents.
If we're talking about big commercial fiction genres, big name authors bids need to be much higher and
80 cents to $1, 1.5 sometimes range to start getting impressions in the
beginning. If you don't get impressions with your bids when you set your
campaign to come back after a week or two and there's nothing in there, there's
just a few impressions, couple clicks and nothing else. It means your bids are too
low. And it makes sense again, when the account is new, Amazon has no data
on your account. So if they're faced between the choice of serving ads from an
account that they know generates a great clickthrough rate and generates sales
and makes them money, rather than this new account that they don't really
know anything about, they're going to choose the other one. So you got to give
them an incentive to pick you instead and to serve your ads, which is basically
higher bid, I'm ready to pay more per click.
So please show my ad. So what you can do is like gradually l increase the bids of the keywords of the
targets that don't get many impressions. So you can, for example, after a week
or two, you can filter your dashboard in the targeting tab which recoups all the
targets across all your campaigns, filter it saying I want to see all the targets that
have had that have had fewer than 1000 impressions or fewer than 500
impressions. You get the list and then you can select them all and apply a rule
that's going to apply to all of them, which is increase the bid by 10, 20, 30%. So I
would recommend 10% for example. And you do that repeatedly week, week
after week, and you raise the bids of those skewers that are just not delivering.
It is possible that a target doesn't deliver because there's no search or there's
no visibility for them, those knee shelters you were talking about earlier. But it's
also a possibility that you're just not bidding high enough. So I I usually
continuously increase the bids off targets that receive few impressions. And
yeah, and once you start getting impressions and clicks and orders, then there's
a game of bid optimization that I go on at length in the book based on like how
much money did I make or lose and how I need to adjust, how much IP per click
in order to break even.
James Blatch : And there's no shortcuts here. This is also labour intensive and if you have a lot of
keywords, I sometimes put 50 to a hundred keywords in there. It's a bit of a
daunting task, Ricardo, isn't it? You're going through this list and you can't,
there's no shortcut that I can think of. You don't want to default them all to the
same amount that's lazy.
Ricardo Fayet: No, you don't want to default them all to the same amount, that's for sure. I, I can use,
you know, those, those kind of bulk percentage increases to increase them or
decrease them, but I don't set them all to the same thing. And there's no
shortcuts you need to go afterwards once they start generating clicks in order,
you need to go through them bond by one. And and adjusting to adjusting for
them to break even basically. Hopefully there's some I know there's some
people working on the software to automate bit optimization, which I think is a
good 75% of the time we spend on Amazon ads. So when the software is out,
hopefully that's going to take a lot of time and energy out of our hands.
James Blatch : Yeah. still on bids. So I mentioned you said that there's some global changes you can
make, but the, these, these default selections you have,
I think there are three of them from memory bids, lower bids, higher bids, lower and high. Can you just
explain those options to us and any recommendations?
Ricardo Fayet: Yeah, there's fixed bids, down bids and up and down. So we fixed, Amazon is basically
going to take your exact bid, right? If you bid 50 cents, Amazon is going to take
that exact bid, put it in the auction, and either you're going to win it or you're
going to lose it, right? With down bids, Amazon may take any number up to that
bid that you said basically based on how likely Amazon thinks the placement is
going to convert. So if you're competing in an auction for a given placement and
you set a bit of 50 cents with like down fitting optimization, if Amazon thinks
that placement isn't really going to, isn't really likely to lead to a conversion,
Amazon might have you bit lower instead, right? So that if you get the click, if
you get a rewarded placement and you get a click, it's going to cost you less
then would've cost you with a fixed bit.
So it's, it's kind of a way for Amazon to help people be more budget conscious basically. And then up
and down is the same kind of bit optimization, but Amazon can also increase
your bid if they think the placement is likely to convert. Right. So if they're, if
you're targeting a keyword and Amazon knows that that keyword has done well
for you in the past, if you set a bit of 50 cents, Amazon might raise it up to 100%
I think. So they might raise it up to $1. That can be great for scaling the up and
down because you basically it's sell Amazon here, you can take all my bids and
go crazy with them double them if you want to. But using your data on what is
most likely to convert, what's important to remember however, is that this
decision of like increasing or lowering the bid is based Amazon bases it on the
likeliness to convert which isn't necessarily correlated with ROI for you,
something might be likely to convert, but if you're spending, you know, $1, $2
per click on it, even if it converts well, you might not make your money back on
So you might, I've had some cases where I was lowering and lowering and lowering the bid and Amazon
kept, you know, raising it with the up optimization because for Amazon that
keyword was converting really well. It's just that for me it wasn't profitable yet,
right? Because I was paying too much quickly. So in cases like that, you take the
campaign off of up and down, you switch it to down or fixed when you're
starting, I always recommend fixed because that way you have complete control
over the bits. And then if you want to scale, you use up and down. And if you
want to be more conservative, you switch it down. But always start with with
fixed, I would say.
James Blatch : Yeah. And there are lots of other things, this platform we haven't got time to go into,
including placements and so on. But I do want to finish by talking about search
terms as you mentioned them a couple of times, and this is such an important
area of of the Amazon Ads platform. Unique, I think to it because Amazon is a
search engine. So the, I think it used to be described as the second biggest
search engine on the planet after Google, which means that people end up
clicking on your ad what's really valuable information to you. And
it's amazing really that we can get this is what they typed in that led them to that point. And you can see
that in the campaign data, can't you?
Ricardo Fayet: Yes, absolutely. You can, you can see the customer search terms and you can run search
term reports for all your campaigns so that you can see exactly which search
terms were followed by a click an an order or can reads of of your product that's
super valuable. Both in terms of advertising, because you can then take these
search terms and use them as keywords to target to kind of double down on
those. And also for you personally to know which searches led to orders of your
book. I know that in other not necessarily on books, but for other departments
on the store some Amazon SEO people lever use ads to reinforce their organic
visibility for certain keywords, right? They use, if they use a certain keyword in
their title or among their seven keywords attached to the product, they run ads
targeting these keyword phrases to try to generate stills on their products
following a search by the customer of that keyword.
And it is believed that that is a ranking factor for for the search algorithm on Amazon, which makes
sense, right? If I were Amazon and if I see that 90% of people after running a
certain search by that product, then I would want that product to rank as high
as possible for that search term, right? So that conversion on organic searches is
is really important. And it is possible that even if that conversion comes from an
ad that that is going to boost your organic ranking for that search term. I will not
guarantee it's the case, but it is, it is a belief and it certainly cannot hurt to rank
well through PPC through ads for the keywords that you have put for your book,
James Blatch : Right? Yeah, absolutely. And I can't underline how important and valuable I think this
data is. You can, you know, for the Facebook ads campaign, you can put in your
interests and your targeting and you can see if the campaign's effective. So
yeah, maybe, maybe that's not quite the right audience for me. But here, even
on a simple auto campaign, after it's run for a week or so, you get to see who
your readers are, who your audience are, and it might surprise you. In fact
generally will surprise you. Probably you thought your book was a particular
subgenre, you got people cross coming over from from other platforms. And
then of course you can target that. So yeah, very important. Okay, well, well
look brilliant. Ricardo, I want to talk about READi for the last part of the
interview, but this is the book Amazon Ads for authors Ricardo Fayette Unlock
your full advertising potential.
I like it. Nice. and you get a picture of, there you go. You, you've got a very valuable not for resale one.
Mine's just a bog standard. It's not even signed. I know. Next time I'm going to
bring it to the conference and you can sign it next time. Yeah, so RTI is a
marketplace for experts who can help the indie author. And I am a fan and a
user of of rti. So I found my two editors. I'm currently using Andrew and
Leighton for development copy and proof. I've had a great time with rti, very,
very useful to me. And so just explain to people who, don't know what RTI is a
little bit more about it.
Ricardo Fayet: Sure. I, you, you said it, it's, it's a freelancer marketplace where we try to bring in the best
publishing talent from across the globe for all the services that a writer might
need to hire at any point throughout their career. So develop ventilators, copy
editors, proofreaders, core designers, illustrators marketers, ghost writers,
website designers, literary translators. And we hope to add narrators and and
audio editing professionals this year as well. And yeah we, what makes re
different from other marketplaces that we're very careful about the people we
accept on the marketplace. We accept less than 5% of freelancers who apply to
be listed on the marketplace. And usually if you take a look at it, you'll see that
most of the people there are coming from traditional publishing, especially for
the editing side of things from one of the big five. Same thing for design for the
marketers on the platform. I interview them personally myself to make sure that
they know what they're talking about because a lot of marketers are great at
selling themselves, but not necessarily great at selling books. So I, I run those
interviews to make sure that the people will list on the marketplace are actually,
are actually good. And that is kind of the, the guarantee that we can offer at
James Blatch : Yeah, rwedsy.com. R w e d s y.com. Ricardo, always a pleasure, never at all talking to you.
Ricardo Fayet: Thank you. Same here.
James Blatch : What's the weather like Madrid?
Ricardo Fayet: It's pretty good. It's pretty warm. Yeah, I think we're expected to have a little bit of call
this weekend, but yeah, that's fine.
James Blatch : I have to live Vicari living in the uk. I have to live vicariously through people who live in
warm parts of the world. Good. And I think we will hopefully see you in London
Ricardo Fayet: Yes, we will definitely be there. We'll be bringing some, some of these books, some of the
earlier books as well. So if you want to grab a pre copy there, there will be pre
copies and I can sign them. Copy. So yours will be the first one I signed. Yeah,
James Blatch : I paid for this
Ricardo Fayet: Because you purchased it. Yeah, I know, I know
James Blatch : Vip because I
Ricardo Fayet: Didn't tell you.
James Blatch : Yeah,
Ricardo Fayet: I did. I'm, I did.
James Blatch : Great look, thank you very much indeed. Brilliant to talk to you, Ricardo. We'll see you in
the summer and please do check out the book and reti.com.
Speaker 6: Thank you. This Is the Self-Publishing Show. There's never been a better time to be a writer.
James Blatch : Okay. So I thought it was a really useful interview and I, I'm not as, as into Amazon ads as
I am, Facebook ads never have been, but it's something I'm sort of really trying
to redress. And I think that that interview's and this book has inspired me a bit
further along the line. And one thing I found was a takeaway for me was the,
that I remember when I first started with Amazon ads, I started with the auto
campaigns, which could of gathered data and and give you a sense of whether,
you know, the platform's going to be working for you in a good place to start.
Cause they're simple, but they never worked for me in my book. And and I
switched them off quite quickly and forgot about them. And then recently,
because we were running some revisions to the course, I decided to start, I think
it's because of the affiliate links.
That's why I needed to get some data in to use those affiliate links. It's not affiliate links, the attribution
links. So I ran auto campaigns again on my books and hey Presto, they actually
started working, I mean, giving me a LA a lower as aos, which is your percent of
income ACOs, ACOs, AOS is a close manufacturer. Lower, lower ACOs are main,
they're actually making money. And in the interviews you heard, I sort of
mentioned this to Ricardo, he pointed out that when I first ran the auto
campaigns, Amazon didn't know anything about my books, didn't have its list of
also Boughts, but now it's got a huge amount of data having sold 10,000 plus
books. It knows more as who my audience are. So it can use that data on an
auto campaign. So never write those off or give up on them. And actually I'm
now using them in a few books quite successfully as well. So that was one small
takeaway from that interview. I thought it was a very good interview on an
Mark Dawson: Yeah, Amazon ads are very important. So with those and Facebook ads, I think they're,
everyone probably needs to be wearing both of those now. And they're, they're
good at different things. So Facebook ads are more powerful, bigger, bigger
audience and more variety of ads you can run. Then on the other hand Amazon
ads are you, you could put your book in front of people as they're looking to
buy. They're on Amazon, Amazon's a store, so they're probably looking to buy
something there and then, so they could, should be easy to make them convert.
But they, they were very well together. Had du we had quite a lot chat with the
Amazon ads team actually whilst I was in Seattle and had had coffee on the
Wednesday morning with the, the Amazonian who runs the the books ads team
now. And yeah, hoping to do some work with, with them to go over the course
of the next year or so. So we will see that it's, it's a good book. Ricardo is you
know, a friend of ours for a long time Spanish Jesus obviously, and it and we
James Blatch : Oh, you don't find that offensive?
Mark Dawson: Well, Ricardo doesn't find it offensive. Ricardo. Ricardo,
James Blatch : Our listener.
Mark Dawson: Our listener, yes.
he's been involved for a long time and he's, he's a very smart guy. There's a
reason why Emmanuel and Ricardo of Bill are really excellent company who
reads in this cause they're, they're really good and they know what they're
doing. So I, I would recommend that you'd check out the book. It's it's a good
James Blatch : Yeah, good. Okay, great. Well, I hope you enjoyed the interview today. Very useful one to
have, one that will be visited many times in the archive, I'm sure. More to come
probably on Amazon ads. Stay tuned to this channel, right? Is it Marky Mark, we
have to say goodbye. Thank you very much indeed to Ricardo, to the team
behind the podcast led by John and Catherine and Tom Stewart and the other
John. And oh, we've got a new person. What's the new person's name? Mark?
What's the new person's name? I dunno. It's terrible, isn't it? Is there a new, is
there a new person? There's a new person. There's MI Melina, Melina Kenon. I
say thank you to Melina who's now working on this podcast team as well. It's
huge. We're growing. Okay, that's it. All the remains for me to say, is there a
goodbye from him
Speaker 7: And goodbye from me. Goodbye.
James Blatch : Goodbye.
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